Super under or over brood box for winter?

[drex]

Exchanging position of brood boxes is something I will usually do in spring. It encourages expansion of brood nest and delays swarming. Never at this time of year though.

 

[Do224]

So can fondant just be applied over the feeding hold in the crown board?

I had it in my head that it needed to be spread evenly across the brood box e.g. rolled on top of a queen excluder...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So can fondant just be applied over the feeding hold in the crown board?

yes

 

[Curly green finger's]

So can fondant just be applied over the feeding hold in the crown board?

I had it in my head that it needed to be spread evenly across the brood box e.g. rolled on top of a queen excluder...

You can do either bare in mind the closer the fondant to the cluster the better.
When feeding over the hole if it's in the middle and the cluster move they can be isolated from the fondant.

Personnel I prefer to use a QX ontop of the bb and then a reversible CB for feeding.

 

[elainemary]

Given that it sounds like I shouldn’t do any form of inspection, I won’t be able to assess my colonies stores (it’s my first year so hefting is probably not going to give me much of an idea...).

The bees have had 2:1 syrup for about the past 5 weeks. Should I be taking the feeders off and offering them fondant now...?

Do you have an empty hive and a few combs that you could measure the weight of? You can then buy a cheap luggage scale and measure both sides of your hive (add together), assume say 5lb for bees and deduct the weight of your empty equipment to deduce stores.

Sounds if they’ve been fed for 5 weeks and have a super too they will be ok. If you’re worried I’d add fondant as insurance it won’t harm but do remove the Queen excluder, takes seconds.

Other guidance is the hive at this time should feel nailed to the floor so you can’t lift it with 2 or 3 fingers.

 

[elainemary]

So can fondant just be applied over the feeding hold in the crown board?

I had it in my head that it needed to be spread evenly across the brood box e.g. rolled on top of a queen excluder...

Depends on the size of the colony. If a nice big colony (should be at this time of year) they can easily find the fondant through the hole. If small, I’d add a queen excluder on top then the fondant and an eke for space above the cluster. The excluder stops any fondant dripping on the bees and stops you crushing any.

Here’s a pic of a nice big colony I put some fondant on over the crownboard last winter and what happened over the next few weeks. Hope it goes well & you feel supported.

 

[oliver90owner]

The problem at this time of the year is if that top box is empty or nearly empty, for some reason. Even empty fully drawn frames in that top box may be a nuisance for the bees. This clearly should have been addressed much earlier.

I have re-organised bee colonies in December, before now, with snow on the ground (that was a colony hastily united a day before admittance to hospital a couple months earlier). If bees are flying, boxes can be opened if really necessary. Otherwise, leave them alone - the bees, by now, will have propolised any gaps at joints between boxes or at the crownboard.

It is a matter of ability and necessity at times! But mainly a need to think ahead.

 

[StephenT]

Exchanging position of brood boxes is something I will usually do in spring. It encourages expansion of brood nest and delays swarming. Never at this time of year though.

Is this to keep them moving up, on the basis that the bottom box should be pretty empty at the start of spring? I'm going into winter with three double broods.

 

[drex]

More to keep them moving down. From Wally shaw on the Wbka website, he says by doing this ( obviously depending when you do it) you place the brood nest right up against the QX . Queens naturally lay downwards and any honey will go above the brood into the supers. It has worked for me for several years now. I had no swarms last year and despite them being slow to get going ( cold spring) they built up very well.

 

[Do224]

Many thanks again for all the advice. Based on the various options suggested, I think I will make some two inch ekes and fill them with insulation board...with a hole cut out for feeding fondant above the feeder hole in the crown board.

I’ll also fill the roof cavities with insulation board. This should give a total of 4 inches of insulation on top of the hives. As mentioned, I’ve also dummied down the smaller colonies with insulation board as I think they should really be in nucs.

Roughly how much fondant should I expect to feed? I know it depends but as a rule how much would an average National hive take over winter and how much would a nuc normally take?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Roughly how much fondant should I expect to feed? I know it depends but as a rule how much would an average National hive take over winter and how much would a nuc normally take?

depends on how much stores they had going into winter, can range from zero to 12 kilos plus

 

[enrico]

Many thanks again for all the advice. Based on the various options suggested, I think I will make some two inch ekes and fill them with insulation board...with a hole cut out for feeding fondant above the feeder hole in the crown board.

I’ll also fill the roof cavities with insulation board. This should give a total of 4 inches of insulation on top of the hives. As mentioned, I’ve also dummied down the smaller colonies with insulation board as I think they should really be in nucs.

Roughly how much fondant should I expect to feed? I know it depends but as a rule how much would an average National hive take over winter and how much would a nuc normally take?

If they have very little food then half a box to start with.....about 6 kilos!

 

[HarryO]

If I have a national brood box with super on top (I know "super" = on top) no Queen Excluder, Kingspan on top of crown board in roof.

What I do not know is, where do I put the fondant ? Sensible answers only please (this is not Morecambe and Wise show) will be appreciated.
Thank you in anticipation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If I have a national brood box with super on top (I know "super" = on top) no Queen Excluder, Kingspan on top of crown board in roof.

What I do not know is, where do I put the fondant ? Sensible answers only please (this is not Morecambe and Wise show) will be appreciated.
Thank you in anticipation.

If the bees have a super full of stores you don’t need fondant.

 

[Do224]

To

feeding fondant View attachment 28979

Can you literally just feed it in a plastic bag...does the bag not collapse as the fondant is removed? Looks a nice and easy way of doing it...how much fondant is in the bag?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can you literally just feed it in a plastic bag...does the bag not collapse as the fondant is removed? Looks a nice and easy way of doing it...how much fondant is in the bag?

Yes
Not really.
2.5kg

 

[HarryO]

If the bees have a super full of stores you don’t need fondant.

Thank you very much for your prompt and helpful reply.

I have 4 hives each with a super on but some of the supers are not full and only have 3 or 4 frames of honey (or nectar) on - This before I began feeding at beginning of October) I have been feeding with ambrosia syrup through a rapid feeder. 25 KGs across the 4 colonies. Then further feeding with 'thick' sugar syrup. I put the last lot in this weekend (they had taken the last lot down from last week but apart from one colony they did not seem too interested. (Too cold?)
I would still like to put some fondant on 'just in case'. Will it be ok on top of the crown board which will be on top of the super?

 

[Amari]

Thank you very much for your prompt and helpful reply.

I have 4 hives each with a super on but some of the supers are not full and only have 3 or 4 frames of honey (or nectar) on - This before I began feeding at beginning of October) I have been feeding with ambrosia syrup through a rapid feeder. 25 KGs across the 4 colonies. Then further feeding with 'thick' sugar syrup. I put the last lot in this weekend (they had taken the last lot down from last week but apart from one colony they did not seem too interested. (Too cold?)
I would still like to put some fondant on 'just in case'. Will it be ok on top of the crown board which will be on top of the super?

As with most questions in beekeeping there is rarely only one correct option - except for the tablet of stone: if you're overwintering on BB and a shallow you must remove the queen excluder, otherwise the bees may follow the stores and leave the queen behind, starving and cold.
Your question partly depends on how many bees there are in the colony. If there are bees ++ in the super then probably OK to put the fondant above the hole in the CB. If few bees in the super they may not reach the fondant through the hole, so best to place a slab of fondant directly on the frames across the width of the hive.
Pundits on the forum advise regular hefting - see numerous posts. Unfortunately this is subjective and despite 49 years of beekeeping I became complacent last winter = wishful thinking** that my hives were heavy and I lost two colonies due to starvation. Now I'm weighing fortnightly.
** or it could be that with muscle wasting commensurate with the passage of time that what felt light 40 years ago now feels heavy......?

Edit: I warm the fondant before placing. I guess that 2.5kg of near-freezing fondant must chill the colony.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

If I have a national brood box with super on top (I know "super" = on top) no Queen Excluder, Kingspan on top of crown board in roof.

What I do not know is, where do I put the fondant ? Sensible answers only please (this is not Morecambe and Wise show) will be appreciated.
Thank you in anticipation.

hole in crown board, invert sandwich container over said hole, you get the picture?

 

[oliver90owner]

Two reasons why the bees are no longer interested in a liqid feed.
1) The available space is full, or
2) It is now too cold for them to continue.

If they have more than sufficient stores and take fondant (because it is handy) your feeding will have been a waste of time - your autumn feed will still be there next spring, there may well be limited space for spring brooding and any honey collected later may be mixed with plain sugar syrup.

The beekeeper should have a good idea of the state of their colonies regarding stores, particularly after 4 years, or more.