Standard national brood v 14x12?

[skydragon]

I went over to 14x12 this year, in my 2nd season as a newbeek and haven't regretted it.

The main advantage as i see it is far easier inspection of the BB, which as a newbeek is a big advantage esp if pressured for time by work/weather.

The only disadvantage i've seen so far, is on some frames the bees have started to eat away the foundation at the bottom edge of some the frames.

I agree with the comment about about 14x12 frames/foundation being harder to find, which means a bit more pre-planning and buying in.

 

[thurrock bees]

The only disadvantage i've seen so far, is on some frames the bees have started to eat away the foundation at the bottom edge of some the frames.

.

i get this on normal brood frames

 

[mbc]

I seem to remember o poll on here asking what configuration beeks were planning on overwintering with ( cant find it now ! ) where the majority of beekeepers answering were going to over winter on single standard national brood box's. Where have all these posters gone now ? It would seem that the tiny number of people who deem it necessary to use the 14x12 frames are far more 'noisy' on this forum.
I would just like to point out that the standard national frame is still by far the most popular in the country and for good reason too, as I think its much nicer to work with than the cumbersome vastness of the huge and ungainly 14x12 frame. Maybe I'm biased as I keep native type bees which are fine in the standard box

 

[Hivemaker.]

I would just like to point out that the standard national frame is still by far the most popular in the country and for good reason too, as I think its much nicer to work with than the cumbersome vastness of the huge and ungainly 14x12 frame. Maybe I'm biased as I keep native type bees which are fine in the standard box

I agree with you mbc,few on double brood....but the majority on single standard brood chamber,no problems at all.

 

[Teemore]

I'm waiting until I have another year or so of keeping bees under my belt before making decisions about hive format. I have started with National as that is what my mentor has and is the most common local format. As has been commented on other threads over the past year, this leaves me with options in terms of 'borrowing' frames of brood etc and any future nuc purchases/exchanges. I'll be trialling a poly nuc next year and am keen to see where that leads me...

 

[MuswellMetro]

I would just like to point out that the standard national frame is still by far the most popular in the country and for good reason too, as I think its much nicer to work with than the cumbersome vastness of the huge and ungainly 14x12 frame. Maybe I'm biased as I keep native type bees which are fine in the standard box

I agree with you mbc,few on double brood....but the majority on single standard brood chamber,no problems at all.

i would love to work a native bee in a small hive but in the SE especially london, they are rarer than hens teeth

Any new Queen I get is by a F2 queen crossed with the mass of local Carnie drones and is no better than a swarmy carnolian beeeasty and won't live in a standard brood

Why so many carnries drones are about is because all the local new beekeeper who have been supplied by the mass retailers of bees who use the most prolific bees they can to make more nucs and more money,

 

[Skyhook]

I went over to 14x12 this year, in my 2nd season as a newbeek and haven't regretted it.
The only disadvantage i've seen so far, is on some frames the bees have started to eat away the foundation at the bottom edge of some the frames.
.

I believe this is not unusual in any hive. Apparently when the bees waggle dance, as it's dark in the hive, the 'watchers' get the message by feeling the vibrations through the comb, and having the comb attached all round deadens the vibrations too much.

 

[tonybloke]

I faced the same dilemma last year and after talking to various members of my local BKA decided on 14 x 12.
The downside of 14 x 12 frames is that they are heavy and therefore more awkward to inspect especially when full of stores. (I have reasonable upper body strength so it is not an issue for me).

Regards
Jim

your profile indicates you use Smith hive?

 

[rae]

I started on standard national, and I wish I hadn't. I don't think I've got barkingly prolific bees (they're not yellow italians), but they fill the 14x12 easily. My remaining standard broods are all overwintering with a super of stores, and in the spring I'll have the fun of making sure the queen is in the bottom again.

The weight doesn't bother me (this seems the most serious disadvantage), and I haven't seen the need to extract from them.

 

[nonstandard]

your profile indicates you use Smith hive?

Yes, I have two smiths hives and a national, only the smiths are occupied at the moment as the swarm colony in the national spent all summer trying to raise a queen and then went queenless and started drone laying at the end of the year so I evicted them and used the stores in my other hives.

All three hives have been converted to 14 x 12 by adding ekes, the smiths frame is the same size as a national only with shorter lugs, therefore you can use a smiths frame in a national (you just have to position it carefully laterally) and you can move a national frame into a smiths with a quick application of the tenon saw.

You can see the converted hives hiding behind the smoker here they are the darker painted ones.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=90110&postcount=20

Regards
Jim

 

[MuswellMetro]

and you can move a national frame into a smiths with a quick application of the tenon saw.

You can see the converted hives hiding behind the smoker here they are the darker painted ones.


Jim

bolt cutters are quicker and you get less agression from the bees if you are putting frames from a standard nuc into a smith hive

 

[MrsB]

I have been keeping bees for three seasons now and from the start have used 14x12 frames. I am a slim, not as young as I would like to be and female. I have never found the frames to be ungainly nor too heavy. I was strongly advised by my course tutor and my mentor to go with nationals. However, what I picked up from my course, and my own research, suggested to me that 14x12 frames would be the better option. I have never regretted it. I believe nationals are still kept by the majority because they are still recommended to the new beekeeper. Interesting that a lot of beekeepers now seem to be changing over.

 

[oliver90owner]

Yes, Mrs B, I think you hit the nail squarely on the hesd.

I changed about 8 years ago and have not regretted it -excepting the extra weight in a full brood, now. I will still not change back. I think there are very few who have tried the jumbo format, after standard broods, who revert to the smaller format (OK there will always be a few- but not very many).

A framof max weight about 3-4 kgs is not that heavy - cf a full super at 17-18kgs (at a guess).

I, too, think that change-over will accelerate, as the old conservative beeks are replaced by younger new beeks.

Regards, RAB

 

[Cazza]

I, too, think that change-over will accelerate, as the old conservative beeks are replaced by younger new beeks.

Regards, RAB

I've never thought of myself as OLD and CONSERVATIVE!

I'm only 46 - the end is clearly nigh.

I use standard because anything else is too heavy. I am about to try national polyhives when I can get one.
Cazza

 

[mbc]

I've gone through a 14 x 12 and a dartington - which was a bugger as not only did I find the frames heavy and awkward but your not even parallel with them , having to reach over and carefully lift and twist before examining them - and although I was impressed by the sheer volume of brood capable of being raised on them I couldnt imagine how my wrists would feel after going through any more than one or two . I think the commercial frames are easier to work because although their bigger than national standards their not that much deeper and are easier to lift out vertically without rolling or crushing any bees

 

[oliver90owner]

I've never thought of myself as OLD and CONSERVATIVE!

Perhaps then, you will not become part of the statistics I was referring to for some time yet!

I couldnt imagine how my wrists would feel after going through any more than one or two

MrsB says 'I am a slim, not as young as I would like to be and female. I have never found the frames to be ungainly nor too heavy.'

The extra space in a Dartington makes manipulations easy. Easily turned through almost 90 degrees before removal. Either you did not take advantage of that positive design facet or you are a ..... I find I rarely need to remove a frame of stores, but if you find them that difficult, you can just slide them to the back of the brood, before removal.

Just an excuse for lack of a bit of lateral thinking, I reckon. Dartingtons are easy to manipulate - and I occasionally suffer from a bad back. The roof is the heaviest part for removal. The question also arises as to how often a stores frame needs to be removed from the brood. I rarely do, unless nicking them for another colony, but there is so much space to slide them along as to make removal at inspections an unecessary chore (as in National boxes).

The beehaus is similar excepting there is a huge hump in the side rails at the central point, making sliding frames along about an order of greater difficulty.

RAB

 

[tonybloke]

I think the commercial frames are easier to work because although their bigger than national standards their not that much deeper and are easier to lift out vertically without rolling or crushing any bees

Yay !! let's hear if for the 'Commercial' hive !!