Standard national brood v 14x12?

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simon kerr 

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Newbie question!!

What are the advantages / disadvantages of using a standard national brood box over a 14x12 brood box or vice verser??

Tar all.
 

Poly Hive 

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Weight for one, and size for another, and the fond hope that a bigger BB will reduce swarming. A forlorn hope... just a bigger swarm.

PH
 

Vergilius 

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14x12 obviously gives more space for brooding in the summer and this therefore is a big advantage if you have a very productive colony. Also it gives more space for stores in winter if you do not wish to over-winter on 1 1/2 or double brood.


Ben P
 
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nonstandard 

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Hi Simon,

I faced the same dilemma last year and after talking to various members of my local BKA decided on 14 x 12. My neighbour has gone down the standard national brood route and has now ended up on brood and a half, I would suggest that it is easier to inspect the 14 x 12 than brood and a half as it is less work and there is less chance of missing/harming the queen.

The downside of 14 x 12 frames is that they are heavy and therefore more awkward to inspect especially when full of stores. (I have reasonable upper body strength so it is not an issue for me).

At the moment 14 x 12 frames/foundation are not so readily available, I struggled to track some down locally this summer when I needed them in a hurry, whereas I could get standard frames without a problem. Mail order was not a problem but if possible I like to buy local and avoid p & p charges.I did order my first lot of frames from C.Wynne Jones (beesupplies.co.uk) and received excellent and very prompt service.

All in all I am happy with my decision and will continue down the 14 x 12 route I am even using them on some converted Smiths hives and find the shorter lugs no problem at all.

Regards
Jim
 

BeeNut 

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Extra cost for the 14x12 hive parts, boxs, frames and foundation.
Then you need to make sure any extractor can take that size of frame, they will cost a bit more, but there are some advantages.
More brood space....
 

Hivemaker. 

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Surely you shouldn't need to be extracting brood frames anyway, you would use a BS shallow for honey.

Depends....if you only use brood box's,then you need to extract from brood frames.
 

BeeNut 

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Not the brood frames, but the store frames in full flow, for sure...
 

nonstandard 

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Surely you shouldn't need to be extracting brood frames anyway, you would use a BS shallow for honey.

Depends....if you only use brood box's,then you need to extract from brood frames.
Point taken :) I think it would take a brave beekeeper to extract a full 14 x 12 though, especially in a tangential extractor.
 

BeeNut 

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My mistake, sorry I didn't realise this was a hoby bee site.
 

MuswellMetro 

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Point taken :) I think it would take a brave beekeeper to extract a full 14 x 12 though, especially in a tangential extractor.
well my 14x12 in full flow have no stores in the 14x12 box except on one side of the outer frames, and above the pollen arch

The brood is across the equilelent of 10 frames, about 70,000 bees, and they are not Carnies

do people really extract honey from the stores frames

in fact sometimes i force in a 12th instead of the dummy
 
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Hivemaker. 

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do people really extract honey from the stores frames

Yes i believe they do.
 

oliver90owner 

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My mistake, sorry I didn't realise this was a hoby bee site.

It is not a hobby bee sit. The forum is open to all. Young or old, hobby or commercial, new beeks or more experienced.

And all shades between those extremes. No discrimination here.

WRT 14 x 12 frames. I have used them for about 8 years and have never extracted one yet. Yes, the bees retain more honey in a 14 x 12 brood box. That does not worry me as I get more than enough honey as a hobbyist beekeeper, so do not need to steal all their stores as am income for me.

I feel my bees over-winter better on a single brood and with OMFs, they have more space to retreat from any severe weather conditions than if a single standard brood only.

Works for me in my area.

RAB
 

MuswellMetro 

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My mistake, sorry I didn't realise this was a hoby bee site.

so with an indicated "none" for hives under your avitar, i suppose you must have experiance elsewhere rather than be a "hoby" beekeeper
 

Nellie 

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My mistake, sorry I didn't realise this was a hoby bee site.

It is not a hobby bee sit. The forum is open to all. Young or old, hobby or commercial, new beeks or more experienced.

And all shades between those extremes. No discrimination here.

WRT 14 x 12 frames. I have used them for about 8 years and have never extracted one yet. Yes, the bees retain more honey in a 14 x 12 brood box. That does not worry me as I get more than enough honey as a hobbyist beekeeper, so do not need to steal all their stores as am income for me.

I feel my bees over-winter better on a single brood and with OMFs, they have more space to retreat from any severe weather conditions than if a single standard brood only.

Works for me in my area.

RAB
Pretty much my feeling. I get less pollen in the supers and can safely regard any honey in the supers as mine.

Only downside I've really noticed is that a full frame of stores is pretty heavy but still preferable to trying to fanny around with double brood or brood and half.

I started out with nationals, decided the above and just bought the conversion ekes (masiemores are better, they go on the bottom of a standard National rather than Thorne's which go on the top so you have to take the runners off) on the basis that if I didn't get on with 14x12s I could always go back.
 

Hombre 

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Muswell', with four 14x12 colonies, if you can rob two frames of stores from each hive, then your honey crop is significantly increased.

The differential between the price of honey and the price of sugar is sufficiently significant to make it a necessity for bee farmers to work the box. Mr Gale certainly took stores from his brood boxes and not just the supers.
 

johna 

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I've had to do an "emergency" extract of brood frames in the spring when the bees had packed the broodnest i.e they were honied-up with no room for the queen to lay.Extracting a couple of frames relieved the situation and allowed the queen some room.Once the queen got going again ,the surplus nectar was stored up in the supers and the situation righted itself.
 

Monsieur Abeille 

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Like many other newbeeks who started out on standard nationals (and WBC in my case) this year, I'm definitely moving to 14x12 next.

I found (and more importantly so did one of my colonies) the space on a single standard not enough for both the early year population explosion and storing food for over wintering. The alternative of using a brood and a half or double brood seems to me to be overly complicated and prone to errors such as losing her maj, as well as introducing an unessesary gap across their frames and having to frequently break comb they've tried to make a bridge with.

There are other reasons which I'm not experienced enough to comment on but make sense to me such as helping expansion and lower likelyhood to swarm.

Its a valid point that many extractors won't accept that size (though many will), but there are always ways around these things for the rare times they may be needed. If not shifting hives about weight should be too much of an issue - a frame of brood doesnt weigh much.
 

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