spliting a hive

[Alistair]

Evening folks
Some advice, pointers please
My first hive that I was given is a commercial hive, they over wintered but were weak, they have bounded back and are now getting grumpy for lack of space.
The queen is not marked and I am not the only one to have searched for her, she is very elusive.
I noticed as they were getting grumpy, she stopped laying but on my last inspection (yesterday evening) she is laying and I spotted
a queen cell.
Due to the size of the hive I ordered two nationals which are now on site one just been transported this evening.
I will be setting it up on Friday as I am working late tomorrow.
Advice please how do I split this hive when the frames are larger than the national frames so can not transfer frames straight across.
thank you in advance

 

[E&MBees]

Evening folks
Some advice, pointers please
My first hive that I was given is a commercial hive, they over wintered but were weak, they have bounded back and are now getting grumpy for lack of space.
The queen is not marked and I am not the only one to have searched for her, she is very elusive.
I noticed as they were getting grumpy, she stopped laying but on my last inspection (yesterday evening) she is laying and I spotted
a queen cell.
Due to the size of the hive I ordered two nationals which are now on site one just been transported this evening.
I will be setting it up on Friday as I am working late tomorrow.
Advice please how do I split this hive when the frames are larger than the national frames so can not transfer frames straight across.
thank you in advance

You can get an eke which will convert a standard brood box to a 14x12. This would work as a short term solution and enable you to make a split.

 

[Sutty]

I can see two possible methods:

1. A "shook swarm" shaking all the bees into new national boxes complete with frames of foundation. This will be a big setback for them as they will need to draw out all the combs and will lose the developing brood.

2. One frame at a time shake the bees off, cut the comb out and cut it down to national size, secure in the national frames eg with elastic bands or molten wax, and place in the national hive. Shake the remaining bees in at the end.

 

[Alistair]

I can see two possible methods:

1. A "shook swarm" shaking all the bees into new national boxes complete with frames of foundation. This will be a big setback for them as they will need to draw out all the combs and will lose the developing brood.

2. One frame at a time shake the bees off, cut the comb out and cut it down to national size, secure in the national frames eg with elastic bands or molten wax, and place in the national hive. Shake the remaining bees in at the end.

thank you the new hives have complete frames with foundation so I could get some try some thing on these lines My wife made all the frames up i seen it done on u tube JP the bee man. I do not want to set them back to much. thanks you again

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A "shook swarm" shaking all the bees into new national boxes complete with frames of foundation. This will be a big setback for them as they will need to draw out all the combs and will lose the developing brood.

Shook swarm is an awful thing to do to the bees at any time of the year, but at the moment would be a real kick in the teeth for them

 

[Sutty]

Shook swarm is an awful thing to do to the bees at any time of the year, but at the moment would be a real kick in the teeth for them

Agreed, but it is a possibility.
Even worse as the op doesn't have the opportunity to give the brood frames to another colony.
More work but cutting out the comb and remounting is the better option for the bees.

 

[hemo]

A possible temporary answer is to use a Hamilton converter eke, it allows 10 Com frames to sit in a BS BB. Then one can as some stage likely next year now put another BB on top and let them to do their own Bailey change, once done you can rid of the Com frames.

 

[Boston Bees]

https://www.thorne.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=229
Edit - snap with Hemo

 

[Boston Bees]

Evening folks
Some advice, pointers please
My first hive that I was given is a commercial hive, they over wintered but were weak, they have bounded back and are now getting grumpy for lack of space.
The queen is not marked and I am not the only one to have searched for her, she is very elusive.
I noticed as they were getting grumpy, she stopped laying but on my last inspection (yesterday evening) she is laying and I spotted
a queen cell.
Due to the size of the hive I ordered two nationals which are now on site one just been transported this evening.
I will be setting it up on Friday as I am working late tomorrow.
Advice please how do I split this hive when the frames are larger than the national frames so can not transfer frames straight across.
thank you in advance

Another option, of course, would be to buy a commercial nuc for the split, get through this year, then sort out the shift to nationals next spring

https://www.bees-online.co.uk/products/category/Commercial_Poly Nucleus & Parts/COMM-POLY-NUC

 

[Alistair]

Shook swarm is an awful thing to do to the bees at any time of the year, but at the moment would be a real kick in the teeth for them

I was not thinking of doing that to them I am thinking reading your replys that I might have to order ten brood frames make them up with no foundation and swap them over one frame at a time I might even spot the queen lol catch her and mark her wha hay

 

[hemo]

I used Hamilton's a dozen plus years ago to try Com's frames, but gave up after a couple of years as i just couldn't get on with short lugs. Still have the H's and use them for feeding slabs of fondant rolled out.

 

[Wilco]

Not sure if it'll work but IIRC the footprint of a commercial is about the same as a national in which case the following may be worth a shot...

Put one of the new BBs with foundation on top of the commercial BB with no queen excluder. Feed syrup.

This might be enough to get them to draw the foundation and the Queen move up. Once she's laying in the national BB then put QE below it so she can't go back down to the commercial BB (and ideally then mark her if you can find her). At that point you can think about plans for splitting the national BB across your two nationals.

Gives them more space in the short term too.

 

[Alistair]

Not sure if it'll work but IIRC the footprint of a commercial is about the same as a national in which case the following may be worth a shot...

Put one of the new BBs with foundation on top of the commercial BB with no queen excluder. Feed syrup.

This might be enough to get them to draw the foundation and the Queen move up. Once she's laying in the national BB then put QE below it so she can't go back down to the commercial BB (and ideally then mark her if you can find her). At that point you can think about plans for splitting the national BB across your two nationals.

Gives them more space in the short term too.

thank you I will try that sounds less stressful for the bees and for me lol

 

[Wilco]

thank you I will try that sounds less stressful for the bees and for me lol

Just keep an eye on them if there was a queen cell.

 

[North End Bees]

Not sure if it'll work but IIRC the footprint of a commercial is about the same as a national in which case the following may be worth a shot...

Put one of the new BBs with foundation on top of the commercial BB with no queen excluder. Feed syrup.

This might be enough to get them to draw the foundation and the Queen move up. Once she's laying in the national BB then put QE below it so she can't go back down to the commercial BB (and ideally then mark her if you can find her). At that point you can think about plans for splitting the national BB across your two nationals.

Gives them more space in the short term too.

So basically a Bailey? Except that a bailey would include an eke with entrance to let the drones out and block the lower entrance to stop the bees filling up the old brood box with vital stores that are only going to be discarded (i.e pollen).
The whole process will take through to August.

They're beginning to wind back the brood nest at this time of year. Why don't you just leave them in the comm box and do a Bailey comb change onto national frames in the spring when they're ready for building up? Give them enough super space now so that they don't have to back fill the brood frames with nectar.

 

[Alistair]

So basically a Bailey? Except that a bailey would include an eke with entrance to let the drones out and block the lower entrance to stop the bees filling up the old brood box with vital stores that are only going to be discarded (i.e pollen).
The whole process will take through to August.

They're beginning to wind back the brood nest at this time of year. Why don't you just leave them in the comm box and do a Bailey comb change onto national frames in the spring when they're ready for building up? Give them enough super space now so that they don't have to back fill the brood frames with nectar.

they have two supers on at the moment one full of honey should I put a another super just to give them room

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I think so

 

[Sutty]

You could cut down a couple of frames to national size, put a queen excluder on top of the commercial brood box, put the 2 cut down frames in a national box on top, dummy down the commercial box, and fill the rest of the national box with foundation. Put the queen in the national box and another excluder over it and supers on top. Hopefully they might then draw out the foundation.