Some colonies are determined to swarm

[B+.]

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Bees swarm despite of empty space. It is their most important thing in the earth: Reproduction.

I don't agree with you on this Finman. How else do you explain the scores the test colonies get? They have been selectively bred over many generations not to swarm. Eventually, they will supercede the old queen though

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Forgive me for being so brusk but, from what I have seen in the past on this forum, such information usually leads to a protracted discussion of the merits/demerits of the system used rather than focusing on the point of the post.

see what you mean..................

 

[Finman]

I don't agree with you on this Finman. How else do you explain the scores the test colonies get? They have been selectively bred over many generations not to swarm. Eventually, they will supercede the old queen though

If hives make this time of year Queen cells, I take it so, that they are in swarming free. I do not trust about selection in this case.

IT is very small job to make AS.

.

 

[Fatbee]

Have you seen any evidence in these colonies that drone creation is less? Stands to reason if their swarming desires reduce they will need less boys?

 

[B+.]

Stands to reason if their swarming desires reduce they will need less boys?

There wasn't a huge drone population.
Compared to my test colonies which have a whole frame available for drone production, this colony had far fewer

 

[B+.]

Stands to reason if their swarming desires reduce they will need less boys?

There wasn't a huge drone population.
Compared to my test colonies which have a whole frame available for drone production, this colony had far fewer

Edit: I'm sorry. I think I misunderstood what you were saying. Do you mean my test colonies or this ladies colony?
My test colonies which show no real interest in swarming still have plenty of drones (Year 1 and 2), but this may be because I gave them a drone comb. This ladies colony had fewer drones than the test colonies even though it swarmed.
I see what you are saying though: a colony which is attempting to reproduce would want to get its genes out there. Are you saying that they would increase their drone production at the same time as making queen cells? I have never noticed this (although a queenless colony or one with a virgin will support more drones).

 

[foghornleghorn]

The test colonies (which are all sister queens mated to drones from other tested colonies on remote islands or using instrumental insemination) will invariably score 3.5-4
Open mated daughters, which I use for drone production, will usually score 3 although apiary mated queens that are not considered part of the breeding population will not usually be scored

This particular colony didn't have one of my queens in. Clearly it would score 1 since it swarmed

It must be a real pleasure keeping bees like that, I'd say all my hives would score 1-2 on that scale..

 

[B+.]

It must be a real pleasure keeping bees like that, I'd say all my hives would score 1-2 on that scale..

It really is.
Sadly, we have some terrible bees in this country and we do little to help ourselves by continually snipping at each other in forums like this. We would gain far more by co-operating, not just with each other, but with our European neighbours too.

 

[casualman]

What comb/box management system do you use to delay/prevent swarming?

 

[madasafish]

It really is.
Sadly, we have some terrible bees in this country and we do little to help ourselves by continually snipping at each other in forums like this. We would gain far more by co-operating, not just with each other, but with our European neighbours too.

+1

 

[B+.]

What comb/box management system do you use to delay/prevent swarming?

I really wanted to avoid talking about swarm management because my interest is primarily assessing the value of the bees from a breeding standpoint.
I will say that I use Langstroth hives which are certainly bigger than the British National. I also try to get them into double brood boxes as soon as possible (usually the spring after introduction) so the queen has enough space to lay. Carniolans are very prolific and build up early and fast. If you are unprepared for this, you will probably force them to swarm through congestion but, if you prepare properly, I find that they do very well here.

 

[Finman]

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Normal open crossed Carniolan is bad to swarm. There is no explanation, congestion or other else, why they swarm. I am just polishing Carniolan genes from my apiary.

i just say, that 2 -hive owner, or 10-owner has no possibilities to keep on non swarmy hives.

If you select from very narrow population the queens, you have soon much more worse problem than swarming. It is harms of inbreeding.

How you can avoid inbreeding, it is buying queens. Another alternative is to select The Hell. It is local mongrels. So called native.

I have accepted AS making. With clipped wings it is easy. I have had non swarmy breeds, but they are difficult to keep on.
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[B+.]

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Normal open crossed Carniolan is bad to swarm. There is no explanation, congestion or other else, why they swarm. I am just polishing Carniolan genes from my apiary.
.

In my experience, the first generation open mated daughters of my A.m.c. would score 3. They don't seem as prolific but I still find they need a double Langstroth brood area at the height of the season.
I understand that people have had less complimentary things to say about other lines, but, I can only base what I say on my own experience. I know that you like your "Italian" bees Finman, so, perhaps it is simply a case of you like what you know best

 

[Binge]

It must be a real pleasure keeping bees like that

Might be easier, I'm not sure I'd refer to it as a pleasure.

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Normal open crossed Carniolan is bad to swarm. There is no explanation, congestion or other else, why they swarm. I am just polishing Carniolan genes from my apiary.

i just say, that 2 -hive owner, or 10-owner has no possibilities to keep on non swarmy hives.

If you select from very narrow population the queens, you have soon much more worse problem than swarming. It is harms of inbreeding.

How you can avoid inbreeding, it is buying queens. Another alternative is to select The Hell. It is local mongrels. So called native.

I have accepted AS making. With clipped wings it is easy. I have had non swarmy breeds, but they are difficult to keep on.
.

Other than the wing clipping bit, I'd have to agree with Finman.
From a genetic point of view, the idea of breeding a queen that produces a colony that has lost the urge to reproduce, doesn't sound like a cunning plan at all.
Certainly not viable or healthy in the long term.

 

[user 6228]

From a genetic point of view, the idea of breeding a queen that produces a colony that has lost the urge to reproduce, doesn't sound like a cunning plan at all.
Certainly not viable or healthy in the long term.

Yes its a Bananas idea
https://www.damninteresting.com/the-unfortunate-sex-life-of-the-banana/

 

[B+.]

Yes its a Bananas idea

I see that open minded discussion is alive and well on this forum.

 

[Finman]

In my experience, the first generation open mated daughters of my A.m.c. would score 3. They don't seem as prolific but I still find they need a double Langstroth brood area at the height of the season.
I understand that people have had less complimentary things to say about other lines, but, I can only base what I say on my own experience. I know that you like your "Italian" bees Finman, so, perhaps it is simply a case of you like what you know best

I have 25 years experiences about Carniolans. First 10 with bought breeded Carniolans and then 15 years with crossings. First two Carniolans I had 1990.

You love to offer your opinions into my mouth. That is strange.

25 years should be some kind of experience.

As you know, Italian is the most nursed bee in the world. But if you do not select your Italians, they swarm as much as Carniolan in the hands of hobby beekeeper.. The difference is that Carniolan swarms clearly earlier than Italian. When it should lay for main yield, it starts to arrange mess with its swarming fever.

.

 

[B+.]

25 years should be some kind of experience.

Unfortunately, this thread does seem to have followed a familiar pattern

 

[Finman]

I see that open minded discussion is alive and well on this forum.

And then that full minded....

 

[Finman]

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i have accustomed go feral Carniolan around me 20 years. They propably live in empty countryside houses. They propably clean themselves from varroa by swarming. They are bad tempered.

When I move my mating nucs far away to any direction, I get Carniolan blood. When I cut my drone cells, fever Italian drones are in the air.

The first crossing are extremely profilic with Italian queen. 170 kg/hive is not rare. I tried to breed those crossings, but then Hell bursted out. Even swarms swarmed.


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