small colony, will it survive the winter?

[astabada]

Hi everyone,
I have a small colony, now on 4 frames, with brood, some eggs and some honey stored. It's doing quite well but hasn't really grown that much (it was a swarm I caught in july) and since they're very gentle bees I don't really want to reunite them with one of my other hives. What should I do? I keep them in my back garden, so it should get too cold this winter but still..

 

[itma]

On 14x12?

I'd put them in a poly nuc, feed, and treat for varroa... AND try and work out what their problem might be.
Bees are 'gentle' if they are sick ... and if they are sick, they don't thrive.
So, unless they were a very small swarm, I'd be suspecting some problem. (Or might the problem be that they were put in a big cold wooden 14x12 hive?)

A 14x12 poly nuc should overwinter OK. Even if some might want to put even more insulation over the roof.
Its easy to weigh to estimate stores usage/remaining, and thus to instigate emergency feeding if/when needed.

 

[mbc]

Why haven't they grown ?
Be very sure there isn't a sinister underlying problem before either uniting them or if they die out, re using the frames.
There can be many different reasons why colonies don't grow.
The number one reason why some colonies struggle round here is poor queens, followed by being pegged back by varroa, then less likely but still possible are various bee diseases (this is of course assuming they're not starving ! )
A swarm caught in July should have expanded by now, given they had enough food and a decent queen, and if they hadn't expanded I'd want to know why.
There's still a few brood cycles for them to build up before settling into winter mode but without enough bees to keep brood warm it can be a case of ever decreasing circles from here on in with the nights drawing in and such colonies only serve to push up our winter losses, saying that, if you're not overly worried whether they make it or not then there's not much to lose by packing them tight and hoping for the best.

 

[Luka22]

Hi,

We are in our first year, so I might be very wrong, but what I have read so far is that people have suggested to overwinter a small colony in a Poly Nuc, which would give them a better chance.

We have small ones as well, but they still seem to build up, so hopefully will be big enough before the winter comes. I found out that one of our biggest problem is right now not having enough drawn combs. So feeding is a balancing act. We give them a little bit of food, but not too much so she still has space for laying. In the meantime the feeding should encourage them drawing more foundation aswell and every time they finish one, we add another one. So its a slow process, but seems to work.

Does your Queen got space to lay? Have you got enough drawn comb?

 

[herefordshirehoney]

On 14x12?

I'd put them in a poly nuc, feed, and treat for varroa... AND try and work out what their problem might be.
Bees are 'gentle' if they are sick ... and if they are sick, they don't thrive.
So, unless they were a very small swarm, I'd be suspecting some problem. (Or might the problem be that they were put in a big cold wooden 14x12 hive?)

A 14x12 poly nuc should overwinter OK. Even if some might want to put even more insulation over the roof.
Its easy to weigh to estimate stores usage/remaining, and thus to instigate emergency feeding if/when needed.

I'm no expert and you certainly have more experience than me but "bees are 'gentle' if they are sick..." - the bee's i've got have been gentle since i've got them, also person's bee i've got them from seem to do the same as mine. Could be interrupted wrong if not used in context.

 

[itma]

... but "bees are 'gentle' if they are sick..." - the bee's i've got have been gentle since i've got them, also person's bee i've got them from seem to do the same as mine. Could be interrupted wrong if not used in context.

Sorry to confuse you.

The observation was simply that if bees are poorly, then that may make them very passive - which some would describe as being "gentle".
Combining the reported "gentleness" with the lack of build-up just raises my suspicions as to the possibility of disease in this case.

// I hope there is some other explanation for the slow build-up, perhaps use of a hive too big for the small colony.

Taking anything out of context would be a mistake ...

 

[Finman]

.
You have other hives.
4 frames is quite good for winter. But if you take a fat brood frame from your big hive,
wintering will much better good. Or 2 brood frames....

 

[Poly Hive]

At this time of year I do not like to pich from Peter to pay Paul, its too big a hit on the Peter. The Pauls of this year have to take their own chances or, kill the queen and unite to a big one.

It's better to take you losses in Autumn than Spring.

PH

 

[drstitson]

as per previous poster - are they in a nuc OR a full sized hive. if the latter is it dummied down and/or have you provided additional insulation?

 

[user 6228]

Hi everyone,
I have a small colony, now on 4 frames, with brood, some eggs and some honey stored. It's doing quite well but hasn't really grown that much (it was a swarm I caught in july) and since they're very gentle bees I don't really want to reunite them with one of my other hives. What should I do? I keep them in my back garden, so it should get too cold this winter but still..

you need a lot of insulation - to be the same as a full colony you have to half the thermal conductance of the hive....for a wooden hive thats still only 4 degrees above outside. To get the average for a nest in a tree ...

 

[Finman]

Even if the colony survive over winter, it has great difficlties to build up in spring.
It has the value of spare queen but not more.

.

 

[user 6228]

you need a lot of insulation - to be the same as a full colony you have to half the thermal conductance of the hive....for a wooden hive thats still only 4 degrees above outside. To get the average for a nest in a tree ...

you need to get the thermal conductance down to around 1/10th of where it is now

 

[Teebeeaitch]

Or perhaps you are just flogging a nearly dead horse. I would not carry out any treatment, nor would I feed them. Just do the post mortem when the time comes.

 

[Finman]

.
I have wintered here 2 frame colonies with 3 W electrict heater.
Temp was -25C sometimes but not long.

Last winter I had such a colony. Half of bees died during winter.
One frame was not able to start brooding. It was 2 feet snow on ground when I took one frame bees from a big hive.

System is not good because you must "loan" bees from big hives and you must one whole box of bees that a miserable nuc starts to live. It is minus to big hives.

A wrong timing to make a nuc what you actually do this way.
It is better to rear real hive during summer than try tricks during the most unfavourable period.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

On 14x12?

Bees are 'gentle' if they are sick ..

I have some very gentle and healthy bees thank you very much.


A July swarm is not going to build up much - brood size contracts from July onwards.
A swarm in July isn't worth a fly.
3 weeks before any new brood emerges and you're into August.
A polynuc is the best chance. Varroa treatment. Feed. Hope.
You might be able to take some sealed stores from another hive. If you have a rampant hive, then you may be able to take a small frame of brood but only at the time you put in a polynuc, otherwise they won't be able to keep it warm.

 

[astabada]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. At the moment the nuc is in a box I built using plywood, probably not the best solution for winter, I know, but I tought that it could have given them the chance to grow (it contains 7 14"x12" frames, not 5 like the others). The bees never really looked sick but simply very gentle, that's the only reason we kept them, we wanted to have a gentle hive (not like the other 3, very productive but not really gentle ones!). I guess we'll try to insulate it as much as we can, and feed them a lot now.

 

[meidel]

putting in a frame of about to emerge brood from another healthy hive won't make a difference to the temper as I believe it's the queen who influences temper - so you could still boost their chances if you were minded to.

Last winter my OH and I over-wintered 2 very small colonies which came through the spring alright. When I say small they were small - mine was a late swarm - July I believe and never had more than 4 frames of brood at any time before battening down the hatches.

 

[drstitson]

the Pains poly nucs take 6 off 14x12 frames.

 

[itma]

I seem to have confused some by my wording ...

Many sick bees behave very passively - which would often be reported as "gentle".

I certainly did not suggest that all gentle bees must be sick!

However, a colony that "hasn't built up much" since July swarming raises questions about its health. Add the report of "gentleness" and I think a very careful eye ought to run over them.


*THEN* - when you are positively certain they are healthy - why not combine with the most evil of your colonies - using the 'gentle' queen? Always worth hanging onto the old queen - having removed her - until you know the new one has been successfully accepted - a short stay of execution. That way, next spring, you should have an established 'gentle' colony ...
And there might even be someone desperate enough for a queen right now as to make it worth your while to send her a very long way away ...


Me? Probably the polynuc now, and buy another hive in the sales ...

 

[oliver90owner]

To be honest, you are lucky if they have built up strongly this year.

I have several colonies which have not prospered this season. Too late, too little forage, too wet, too cold. Most will be united and the odd one will get special attention. No real problem - unless you are a one or two hive owner.

I am currently parking colonies close together in the wintering quarters, ready for uniting shortly.

Even a small colony 'only good for the spare queen' can be an asset in the spring.