Slow colony build-up and supersedure

[BeeOnMyWay]

I'd welcome some advice from more experienced beekeepers. My question is what happens when an already weak colony creates queen cells while the old queen is still present and laying? When the new queen hatches will the old queen leave naturally, taking up to a third of the workers with her (further weakening the colony), or will the old queen kill the new queen, or the new queen kill the old one? Given any of the above scenarios, should I remove the old queen now?
Some background: my only colony has been very slow to build up this year despite being strong last year. I have seen the queen, eggs, larvae and sealed brood, but so far on only two frames - and that has been the case for some time now. I obtained the colony as a swarm in July last year. I found a single unhatched queen cell in an inspection yesterday and tore it down. For a variety of reasons I had wondered whether the slow build-up was due to varrao and had been treating with Apiguard. There's no evidence of my having a major problem (fewer than one varroa a day average). I removed the Apiguard yesterday. I mention that because I wondered whether it might have something to do with there only being one new queen cell.
Any advice appreciated.
Dairy of a Nervous Beekeeper for more information

 

[Moggs]

Don't tear single q cells down as they may be your only means to replace the failing queen! If it was a swarm last year, the q will be of an uncertain vintage, her pheromones may be weak and therefore the bees will want to supersede her. They do this by raising q cells (generally few in number on the face of the comb). The old queen will be dealt with when the bees are happy that they have a new monarch. They shouldn't leave the hive as a swarm as there is absolutely no benefit. Removing the old queen will serve little purpose.

I would advise testing for varroa mite drop over a seven day period before treating and by the way, Apiguard isn't very effective at these lower temperatures. It sounds as if you have a failing queen. Do you see evidence of nosema (bee poo streaks)? This might cause a slow build up. Diagnosis is by microscopy (grind up a sample and look for spores - threads elsewhere on this forum). By the way, where in the UK are you? - it's a big place!

Good luck.

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

Yes, I regretted tearing down the single queen cell almost as soon as I'd done it! I had Ted Hooper's words (have a plan before you go in) ringing in my ears.
The varroa thing was always a long shot and you're quite right about testing first. Another lesson I learned the hard way. I treated with Apiguard and Oxalic acid over winter. I was simply advised to treat again now "because it can do no harm". I'm realising that this is all sounding a bit haphazard...

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

When you say, "the old queen will be dealt with" does that imply that she'll not be allowed to pose any threat to the new queen? One of my concerns is that the old queen could kill the new virgin queen.

 

[nottingham]

My hive isn't building up as fast as I would like and I too got my colony as a swarm in July. I find that the strain of Queen I have makes for happy bees as they are very defensive of there hive, unlike the more docile bees I have seen that allow wasps in and out with no attempt to defending there home. Yet the queen isn't a very fast layer but by the very fact that it was a swarm tells me that the queen is just a late starter compared to other breeds of honey bees.

As for your understanding of the way swarming happens, you would benefit from reading about swarming in a beekeeping book because your current understanding of swarming and how it affects the colony that is left behind is not right.

I hope this helps

Duncan

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

No evidence of nosema (bee poo) but, again, I was advised to treat with Fumidil B as a precaution and have been feeding it to the bees in sugar syrup for the last eight days.

 

[Moggs]

You may cause more problems by interfering - let them get on with it. They've been doing it for quite a few million years and often know best

For example, what happens if you get a new queen and she fails to mate? It happens quite regularly that two queens co-exist in a hive for a while.

 

[Finman]

.
Bye a new laying queen. Don't wait that it get a new laying queen (from bad origin). It takes a month time.

2 brood colony is very weak to build up. When you get a new queen, give a frame of emerging bees from another hive. And then a week later another frame, it that second hive has afford to that.

If you get a swarm, take a bad queen off and join the swarm to the weak hive.


the queen may be violated by nosema during winter. It is quite usual. Winter losses are more queen losses than dead of colonies.

 

[Moggs]

I really don't think that you should be offering such 'treatment' without evidence of disease! I'm sure that we wouldn't think too highly of our GP's if they started offering random prophylactic treatments! Keep a watching brief on them - hopefully you will get a decent supersedure cell or two - but remember that there will be a considerable delay before they are productive - you could consider requeening.

 

[nottingham]

When you say, "the old queen will be dealt with" does that imply that she'll not be allowed to pose any threat to the new queen? One of my concerns is that the old queen could kill the new virgin queen.

Moggs makes a very good point about the age of the queen is unknown but I have had to remove cell cups at the bottom of my frames too and I have only 4 1/2 frames of capped brood. So your bees supersede her may not be what is happening. I intend to buy a new queen of the same breed, it may be an idea for you to do the same. Then you will know the age of your Queen.

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

Fair comment about my lack of understanding about swarming Duncan, although the none of beekeeping books I did consult described this scenario. Having seen fellow local beekeepers dealing with colonies bursting at the seams, and having been advised (by very experienced beekeepers) that my problems 'probably' stemmed from disease or infestation I'm simply trying to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[nottingham]

I might be wrong but it sounds like you have black British bees. If that is the case my bees are the same and doing the same as your bees. Many bees are bred to lay brood to over bursting and many beeks say that the black British bee is not carm enough for them but docile bees worry me to much. To have a little peace of mind, replacing your queen could be the best thing to do.

 

[oliver90owner]

Ask yourself the question: Why would they go to all the trouble to produce a new queen (to replace an old, worn out, past it's sell-by date, damaged or sick) and then have the new efficient, in-date, undamaged or healthy) queen bumped off?

You need to get out a good book and read up about supercedure. Hooper does cover it.

Things are a bit haphazard by the advice you are being given (not here on the forum); you probably need a different mentor if that type of advice was from that quarter.

ou should avoid, if at all possible, treating for something if it is not there. Firstly the treatment will not work and secondly you are wasting time effort and resources (ultimately, money).

On another note, and it does not apply to either apiguard or oxalic acid, resistance to medications can be induced if not used properly/responsibly.

Brood on only two frames at this stage of the season, wherever you are (unless in the extreme north, maybe) is a seriously weak colony. It should be restricted to no more than half the full sized brood box until it starts to build up. Putting it in a nuc box would be a good idea -and even then it would only be a small/weak nucleus colony!

Regards, RAB

 

[MuswellMetro]

first were are you, as it can differ were you are, when london is 23c and lerwick can by 10c

please amend you profile to show at least a major town near you or county

apiguard can cause slow laying as can all thymol treatments, see what happens at the next inspection

i expect you bees will make another Queen cell, but you could be in trouble if the bees have started ignoring the old queen as she will starve

in a standard superscedure the workers starve the old queen but you can get mother and daughter laying at the same time ,especially in spring, they can even co exhist on the same frame

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

That's very helpful. Thank you all.
You have allayed one of my concerns: that the old queen might be allowed to pose a threat to the new one and that I should therefore remove her. I won't now.
I cannot disagree with idea of offering treatment 'blindly'. I was simply following advice and, at the time, there seemed good reason to suspect that it could be either nosema or varroa.

 

[Moggs]

But you were offering treatments 'blindly'. What evidence of either condition did you see? In 'treating' there is a real danger that you just compound the effects of the real problem.

If you are uncertain still, perhaps you could get an experienced beekeeper to give them a thorough inspection. Internet forum diagnosis has its flaws!

 

[BeeOnMyWay]

But you were offering treatments 'blindly'. What evidence of either condition did you see?

Sorry about the delay in responding. There was no evidence either way of varroa infestation because I hadn't been monitoring it correctly (I am now). Despite my not having access to a microscope several factors led me and others to suspect that it might be nosema: apart from the slow build-up my bees have been far more docile this year than last. (I suspect that they are not the black British bees referred to by Duncan above. They are a much lighter 'milk chocolate' brown). Much of the foundation on which the bees spent the winter was old and dark. I had been in the process of replacing it last year but, since I only started late in the year couldn't do that too quickly. There have also been several confirmed cases of nosema in hives local to mine.
Finally, I was quite simply advised that there was no downside to my treating with Fumidil B even if I didn't have nosema. I'm a novice and I took that advice at face value.