Seeking Mentor - Yorkshire

[pargyle]

Drone uncapping kills off vital mating drones, if they come from a colorny with good traits then there loss may be more detrimental.
For the alcohol wash consider a different tack and carry out a sugar roll on the cup of bees instead, that way they can return to the colony alive.
Sometimes one can do to much reading early on and to understand or take in the good from the not do good.

I agree ... alcohol wash and drone culling both unneccesarily destructive ... avoid.

 

[YHB]

Try and forget as much of that as possible - stick with Haynes, ROB Manley's books are great, a bit dated now but gives a good insight on how things used to be done


Forget drone culling, as Hemo says - detrimental as it affects the healthy drone population which is essential for the continuation of a good and varied genetic mix, it also has very little effect on the mite population, maybe having a beneficial effect lasting as much as ten minutes.

Thanks all, like you say different answers. I have spoken to a bee inspector and a master beekeeper and they both recommended drone removal. I know you are right about it being detrimental to the apiary. Isn’t that why you in it do it outside of the key drone laying months? Also it’s a combined strategy so not very hive would receive the same process at the same time.

I am going to stick with the alcohol wash, I have a number of articles and special articles on the subject. I just felt that the alcohol wash was a better indicator of the hives health. Against the sugar shake and the CO2 option. I also wouldn’t do it before the critical spring change over from winter to spring summer bees. Don’t want to lose those important fats and proteins, before the winter bees die off.

This is why I plan to use a passive and proactive testing. Once the colony has switched its brood production I didn’t think losing 300 bees would be a big issue, I’d rather know my mite load.

My plan is based on multiple sources and I have read the BBKA special article on integrated pest management.

Everyone is also right that this is my plan for 2021, I still have lots to learn. I’m sure I will be changing it again for 2022.

But as an inexperienced beekeeper, thought it was better to have my plan written down month by month as I’m not able to just react like a more experience beekeeper.

One key item for me is to improve my colony handling skills and queen marking etc.

 

[amandaj57]

Firstly, I am going to say this statement is not meant to be harsh, you are obviously keen to do the best for your girls but I really need to say this.

You seem very determined to go down the route you have already decided on so I am not sure a mentor would be very beneficial to you. You have been given sound advice by some of the most knowledgeable members of the forum but you are choosing to stick with the advice given by an institution notorious for its inability to adapt to better methods.

About six years ago, I was involved in mentoring someone with a similar rigid idea of what they were going to do, and what they were going to achieve, and am getting deja vu from your posts. It was like bashing my head against a brick wall.

I stepped back and let them got on with it. They lost all their colonies and gave up beekeeping.

I do not consider myself an expert and do not get big honey harvests but I have kept my colonies alive and healthy for 15 years in a less than ideal environment. There are people on here whose advice is like gold dust and I would not be so quick to dismiss it because a 'master' beekeeper says so or because of a BBKA article.

Ask yourself, why does this forum exist and why we don't just use the BBKA one.

 

[YHB]

Firstly, I am going to say this statement is not meant to be harsh, you are obviously keen to do the best for your girls but I really need to say this.

You seem very determined to go down the route you have already decided on so I am not sure a mentor would be very beneficial to you. You have been given sound advice by some of the most knowledgeable members of the forum but you are choosing to stick with the advice given by an institution notorious for its inability to adapt to better methods.

About six years ago, I was involved in mentoring someone with a similar rigid idea of what they were going to do, and what they were going to achieve, and am getting deja vu from your posts. It was like bashing my head against a brick wall.

I stepped back and let them got on with it. They lost all their colonies and gave up beekeeping.

I do not consider myself an expert and do not get big honey harvests but I have kept my colonies alive and healthy for 15 years in a less than ideal environment. There are people on here whose advice is like gold dust and I would not be so quick to dismiss it because a 'master' beekeeper says so or because of a BBKA article.

Ask yourself, why does this forum exist and why we don't just use the BBKA one.

Hi, I always take on board what everyone has to say to me. I might not always agree or follow that advice.

I know everyone who has posted is more experienced than I, but I haven’t come to this plan from ready one article or book. It’s come from months of asking questions, joining and attending association zoom calls, ready scientific papers.

I do fully agree with your view on BBKA, and I am not dismissing their views due to conversations from bee inspections or master beekeepers.

Can I ask what is wrong with undertaking an alcohol wash to assess mite load?

 

[amandaj57]

Hi, I always take on board what everyone has to say to me. I might not always agree or follow that advice.

I know everyone who has posted is more experienced than I, but I haven’t come to this plan from ready one article or book. It’s come from months of asking questions, joining and attending association zoom calls, ready scientific papers.

I do fully agree with your view on BBKA, and I am not dismissing their views due to conversations from bee inspections or master beekeepers.

Can I ask what is wrong with undertaking an alcohol wash to assess mite load?

Whist an alcohol wash is accurate (or indeed a soap one), it will kill the bees. How many times a season are you prepared to sacrifice the lives (and most of us do not kill our bees unnecessarily) of a couple of hundred bees.

A sugar roll doesn't kill the bees but still removes about 90% of the mites. It is a bit more work counting, but weighing that against killing a couple of hundred bees a time, I am prepared to do that. You can always add on a percentage of mites found on the sugar roll to be happy you have a good idea. A sugar roll can be carried out weekly if necessary without any detriment to the strength of the hive. People using this method generally carry out more regular checks (because it is not harmful) and often have a better idea of the varroa patterns in their hives because of the regularity.

Why use a method which is harmful to the bee when there are other methods that will give you results that are just as useful?

 

[pargyle]

Hi, I always take on board what everyone has to say to me. I might not always agree or follow that advice.

I know everyone who has posted is more experienced than I, but I haven’t come to this plan from ready one article or book. It’s come from months of asking questions, joining and attending association zoom calls, ready scientific papers.

I do fully agree with your view on BBKA, and I am not dismissing their views due to conversations from bee inspections or master beekeepers.

Can I ask what is wrong with undertaking an alcohol wash to assess mite load?

It kills bees ... you get exactly the same result from a sugar roll but it does not hurt the bees and they can be returned to the colony...you could do a sugar roll every week and not affect your bees but killing 200 a week with alcohol washes is going to lose you 200 nurse bees and later on foragers... why are you not listening to the good advice you are being given...ahhh Amanda got to it first ... take her advice...

I do regular sugar rolls and I've checked ... they remove all the mites when done properly... I use the Abelo sugar roll device ... look it up there is a video you can watch ... very easy and gives good and accurate results...

 

[YHB]

Whist an alcohol wash is accurate (or indeed a soap one), it will kill the bees. How many times a season are you prepared to sacrifice the lives (and most of us do not kill our bees unnecessarily) of a couple of hundred bees.

A sugar roll doesn't kill the bees but still removes about 90% of the mites. It is a bit more work counting, but weighing that against killing a couple of hundred bees a time, I am prepared to do that. You can always add on a percentage of mites found on the sugar roll to be happy you have a good idea. A sugar roll can be carried out weekly if necessary without any detriment to the strength of the hive. People using this method generally carry out more regular checks (because it is not harmful) and often have a better idea of the varroa patterns in their hives because of the regularity.

Why use a method which is harmful to the bee when there are other methods that will give you results that are just as useful?

I fully understand I don’t have your experience, but from the scientific studies I have read.

It has showed that the sugar roll is not as accurate as the alcohol wash. Not sure where you have got 90% from. I am not planning to undertake assessments each week as this in turn will affect the colony. I only plan to open them when I have to, for scheduled assessment.

Varroa mite load is at its highest between August and November, so there is no need to check weekly.

The alcohol wash gives me a definitive answer on my mite load and I’d rather know the health of my colonies rather than a more variable assessment using sugar roll.

Alcohol Assessments as part of an integrated plan would only be undertake twice a year. Assuming the colony isn’t close to complete collapse losing 300 bees twice a year isn’t going to adversely affect the colony.

The point of my question was to show that your view is the sugar is the best, but it’s not the answer. There is no answer, each process is right and each is wrong depending on your person view.

You mentioned an institution that has an inability to move to better methods. But you have clearly telling me I am doing it wrong, so I have to ask which of us is steadfast and immovable.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You seem very determined to go down the route you have already decided on so I am not sure a mentor would be very beneficial to you. You have been given sound advice by some of the most knowledgeable members of the forum but you are choosing to stick with the advice given by an institution notorious for its inability to adapt to better methods.

I'm already getting the feeling that I'm addressing a brick wall

 

[YHB]

I can see now why people told me not to come in this site

 

[YHB]

I'm already getting the feeling that I'm addressing a brick wall

If you are the moderator might aswell close this thread to comments as it’s clearly just for the best

 

[amandaj57]

I fully understand I don’t have your experience, but from the scientific studies I have read.

It has showed that the sugar roll is not as accurate as the alcohol wash. Not sure where you have got 90% from. I am not planning to undertake assessments each week as this in turn will affect the colony. I only plan to open them when I have to, for scheduled assessment.

Varroa mite load is at its highest between August and November, so there is no need to check weekly.

The alcohol wash gives me a definitive answer on my mite load and I’d rather know the health of my colonies rather than a more variable assessment using sugar roll.

Alcohol Assessments as part of an integrated plan would only be undertake twice a year. Assuming the colony isn’t close to complete collapse losing 300 bees twice a year isn’t going to adversely affect the colony.

The point of my question was to show that your view is the sugar is the best, but it’s not the answer. There is no answer, each process is right and each is wrong depending on your person view.

You mentioned an institution that has an inability to move to better methods. But you have clearly telling me I am doing it wrong, so I have to ask which of us is steadfast and immovable.

I haven't said you are doing it wrong but I do think you are being unnecessarily cruel to the bees. They are living creatures after all. 300 bees twice a year on 3 hives. Almost a couple of thousand bees killed prematurely for very little additional benefit.

The sugar roll method was developed by The Bee unit at the University of Minnesota. They tested out its efficacy. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence from unconvinced people who have tried a sugar roll, then carried out an alcohol wash on the same bees and found little or no further mites.

I have made many changes to my own beekeeping practices over the years. Having spent part of my career in academia and research, I thought I could learn it all from books, scientific papers and the monthly BBKA meetings. How completely wrong I was. Without support from this forum, often just lurking round the threads, I probably would have given up a decade ago.

Incidentally, if you are not planning on opening your hives each week, how are you controlling swarms?

 

[pargyle]

Oh my....you don't need a mentor... you just need someone to agree with what you have already made up your mind about... as someone who monitors varroa loads throughout the season by sugar rolls... and as a non-treater of quite a number of years I must have done hundreds of sugar rolls..

But... carry on with your scientific studies and written plans...you will find your plans fall apart the day you get some bees .. they don't read the same books or watch the same videos as you do...

They are your bees ... do with them what you feel is best ..including killing them if you wish...

 

[Boston Bees]

I fully understand I don’t have your experience, but from the scientific studies I have read.

It has showed that the sugar roll is not as accurate as the alcohol wash. Not sure where you have got 90% from. I am not planning to undertake assessments each week as this in turn will affect the colony. I only plan to open them when I have to, for scheduled assessment.

Varroa mite load is at its highest between August and November, so there is no need to check weekly.

The alcohol wash gives me a definitive answer on my mite load and I’d rather know the health of my colonies rather than a more variable assessment using sugar roll.

Alcohol Assessments as part of an integrated plan would only be undertake twice a year. Assuming the colony isn’t close to complete collapse losing 300 bees twice a year isn’t going to adversely affect the colony.

The point of my question was to show that your view is the sugar is the best, but it’s not the answer. There is no answer, each process is right and each is wrong depending on your person view.

You mentioned an institution that has an inability to move to better methods. But you have clearly telling me I am doing it wrong, so I have to ask which of us is steadfast and immovable.

I admire the fact that you have tried to put a lot of work in, but perhaps it would be best to consider an analogy in order to understand the reactions you have received.

Forget bees for a second and lets say you wanted to become a sheep farmer. Now lets imagine you found a forum where local farmers (I don't know where you are based, but let's say Yorkshire) exchanged ideas. Some of them have hundreds of sheep and have been farming them for decades in local conditions. And on that forum you said this:

"Hello. I am in my first year of farming here in Yorkshire. I have bought 2 sheep and have a small paddock. Having done a lot of research online, and having watched their YouTube videos, I have decided to use the sheep feeding method recommended by Billy McHillbilly of Kentucky, USA, and the breeding method recommended by Charlie McIcicle of deepest Newfoundland. I shall be using equipment designed by a breeder in Georgia, USA. Would anyone like to be my mentor?"

In all honesty, if you were one of those local farmers, would you leap at the chance? Or might your back be put up just a little bit?

 

[YHB]

Oh my....you don't need a mentor... you just need someone to agree with what you have already made up your mind about... as someone who monitors varroa loads throughout the season by sugar rolls... and as a non-treater of quite a number of years I must have done hundreds of sugar rolls..

But... carry on with your scientific studies and written plans...you will find your plans fall apart the day you get some bees .. they don't read the same books or watch the same videos as you do...

They are your bees ... do with them what you feel is best ..including killing them if you wish...

Thanks I will

 

[pargyle]

I can see now why people told me not to come in this site

If you can't take advice from people who have been there, watched the film and got the T shirt then you are probably wasting people's time in responding to your ideas which appear cast in stone in your written plan. Do come back and tell us how you get on when you have some bees and perhaps we can learn something from you.

In the meantime I'm sure the many thousands of people who are active members of the forum and gain knowledge and innovation that is rarely found elsewhere far outweigh those who might suggest its not a place to frequent... their loss I fear and we are probably better off without them...

 

[elainemary]

Thanks, I do have the Haynes manual. I got it for Christmas. So far I’ve read the BBKA book, beekeeping for dummies and some of the Rob Manley book.

I will try the apiarist blog.

So far I follow the Norfolk Honey Company, No nonsense Beekeeping, Gwenyn Gruffydd, IN Steppler, Richard Noel, Bob Binnie and Jeff Horchoff.

Pretty much been binge watching beekeeping videos since last May.

I have written my integrated pest management plan for 2021. I plan to undertake both passive varroa count using the corex sticky boards and undertake active count with an alcohol wash. I have also planned to replace one of my brood frames with a super to allow me to undertake drone uncapping and removal.

Also just recently replaced my GASVAP with a sublimox as I didn’t think was working properly. The GASVAP was either to cold or to hot.

Also planning to use thymovar for my poly hive instead of three OA Sub treatments.

I have decided to use the Bob Binnie double screen board method for my swarm control abs vertical splits this year.

This is my first winter and hoping I will be fine, my two wooden Nationals are on a brood and a half with my poly on a single brood box. I treated them on Friday and they’ve hardly touched the fondant I placed out on the 5/12.

I have a glass quilt on one and it seems they still have a lot of stores in the super.

It's good to experiment and learn from all the things you're planning for next year.

Re drone removal I've grappled with this. My concern has been around poor queen mating generally and whether this contributes. At first sight it sounds a good idea - a frame can collect c50% of the varroa in a hive whilst drone cell may only represent c 10-15% of the cells in the hive. But if you take it all out not only are you depleting drones, it only takes one doubling of varroa to get back to where you started ie only 1 brood cycle. So I put a super comb in the brood box and do a small amount of uncapping c 100 cells. If less than 10% have varroa on & I like the colony I'll leave, if more & I'm thinking of requeening anyway, I'll remove.

 

[YHB]

I’m

Oh my....you don't need a mentor... you just need someone to agree with what you have already made up your mind about... as someone who monitors varroa loads throughout the season by sugar rolls... and as a non-treater of quite a number of years I must have done hundreds of sugar rolls..

But... carry on with your scientific studies and written plans...you will find your plans fall apart the day you get some bees .. they don't read the same books or watch the same videos as you do...

They are your bees ... do with them what you feel is best ..including killing them if you wish...

So I don’t miss understand, as I haven’t agreed.

Should I just stop the current plan and do what you and this forum tells me to do?

As when you tried a method you didn’t like it and decided on a non treating method?

 

[YHB]

I admire the fact that you have tried to put a lot of work in, but perhaps it would be best to consider an analogy in order to understand the reactions you have received.

Forget bees for a second and lets say you wanted to become a sheep farmer. Now lets imagine you found a forum where local farmers (I don't know where you are based, but let's say Yorkshire) exchanged ideas. Some of them have hundreds of sheep and have been farming them for decades in local conditions. And on that forum you said this:

"Hello. I am in my first year of farming here in Yorkshire. I have bought 2 sheep and have a small paddock. Having done a lot of research online, and having watched their YouTube videos, I have decided to use the sheep feeding method recommended by Billy McHillbilly of Kentucky, USA, and the breeding method recommended by Charlie McIcicle of deepest Newfoundland. I shall be using equipment designed by a breeder in Georgia, USA. Would anyone like to be my mentor?"

In all honesty, if you were one of those local farmers, would you leap at the chance? Or might your back be put up just a little bit?

Obviously not,

But let’s get back to bees. As I want to try something else.

Am I wrong? Should I just do what people suggest blindly without trying?

At why point did I say anyone was wrong?

 

[pargyle]

I’m

So I don’t miss understand, as I haven’t agreed.

Should I just stop the current plan and do what you and this forum tells me to do?

As when you tried a method you didn’t like it and decided on a non treating method?

You are missing the point ...I've been a non treater since I got my first bees ... people told me i was mad and i persisted but i have taken lots of advice about other aspects of beekeeping - much of it proffered on here. The only aspect that flies totally in the face of common sense is your insistence on doing alcohol washes when they:

A) Kill bees
B) Achieve nothing that a sugar roll wont do

It demonstrates an intractibility that in beekeeping is the mistake that many new beekeepers make ...they are influenced by people who are set in the ways of the past and ideas written down in bee books that are repeated ad infinitum since Brother Adam was a lad.

I have no issues with you treading your own path...I'm way off piste in my beekeeping but for goodness sake listen to good advice that is backed by common sense and experience ...

 

[YHB]

I haven't said you are doing it wrong but I do think you are being unnecessarily cruel to the bees. They are living creatures after all. 300 bees twice a year on 3 hives. Almost a couple of thousand bees killed prematurely for very little additional benefit.

The sugar roll method was developed by The Bee unit at the University of Minnesota. They tested out its efficacy. There is also plenty of anecdotal evidence from unconvinced people who have tried a sugar roll, then carried out an alcohol wash on the same bees and found little or no further mites.

I have made many changes to my own beekeeping practices over the years. Having spent part of my career in academia and research, I thought I could learn it all from books, scientific papers and the monthly BBKA meetings. How completely wrong I was. Without support from this forum, often just lurking round the threads, I probably would have given up a decade ago.

Incidentally, if you are not planning on opening your hives each week, how are you controlling swarms?

I haven’t said I know better, but I know, that I don’t know anything.

Losing 900 bees a test for me is worth it, to protect my colonies from DWV or worst complete collapse. It’s not I am killing 900 bees, I am saving and protecting the thousands left in the colony. Again, your view - My view.

I also know papers and books aren’t going to give me all the answers. But at no point has anyone suggested I should consider other techniques. You are telling me I am wrong.

As for swarm control, if I have no QCs and have slabs of brood. I know I have 10-12 days maximum before the colony is going explode and is more likely to swarm. At which point I know I need to knock them back, create Nucs, undertake a vertical split or one of the other meths available. I also know they are bees and going to do what they want regardless of me.

But if I know that, what am I going to gain from going in each week on that hive? I am always looking to learn,