Reuniting after failed mating

[Islandbees]

Hi all. After a bit of advice for a possible near future situation. I performed an AS around 5th July and new Q hatched on 21st. Since then the weather has been awful, not been above 15 degrees and only had a couple of dry days. As of Friday 7th aug, new queen still not laying. The bees have polished cells and have an arc of stores in the top corners, which was promising originally but now it seems time is running out. If the Q is still not laying by the end of the week I'm planning on reuniting the 2 colonies. But if I do this, can I be sure the bees will kill the VQ and not the laying queen. If not, and tips on how could I find the VQ myself thanks in advance. And let's hope this weather improves

 

[nantmoel]

Hi all. After a bit of advice for a possible near future situation. I performed an AS around 5th July and new Q hatched on 21st. Since then the weather has been awful, not been above 15 degrees and only had a couple of dry days. As of Friday 7th aug, new queen still not laying. The bees have polished cells and have an arc of stores in the top corners, which was promising originally but now it seems time is running out. If the Q is still not laying by the end of the week I'm planning on reuniting the 2 colonies. But if I do this, can I be sure the bees will kill the VQ and not the laying queen. If not, and tips on how could I find the VQ myself thanks in advance. And let's hope this weather improves

Or you could buy a queen in!

 

[YorkshireBees]

Whatever you do, combine / buy in queen you MUST first find and despatch the 'virgin' Queen in the hive.

More than likely the younger queen will be more agile and would kill the existing older mated queen but either way it is not worth taking the risk imho.

In terms of finding her there are many methods that have been described in other threads (try searching finding queen).

Personally I would also say that although it may feel like a long time you are waiting I have had queens not laying for upto a month after emergence and they were mated ok. I would almost go as far as to say those that didn't mate successfully (ie DLQ's) started laying eggs sooner than those that did get mated.

Personally I would wait.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

If the Q is still not laying by the end of the week I'm planning on reuniting the 2 colonies.

Why? What situation are you trying to create / avoid? Are you worried about winter preparation? Think in terms of risk / reward of each course of action. Reuniting opens the possibility, if not done correctly, of complete disaster.

 

[Islandbees]

Thanks for the replies. I don't mind waiting a little longer at all. Just reading some threads people say after 21 days the queen will be poorly mates etc. if this isn't necessarily the case, and you've had success then I'll give it longer. I'll read up on finding queens in the mean time.
With regards to buying a queen in, I live on an island that is varroa free. Unfortunately in this case (but fortunately generally speaking) Bees are not allowed to be brought in. Due to this bad weather, other members of our association are having similar problems so new queens are in short supply.

 

[Islandbees]

Why? What situation are you trying to create / avoid? Are you worried about winter preparation? Think in terms of risk / reward of each course of action. Reuniting opens the possibility, if not done correctly, of complete disaster.

Hi. I was thinking: if I don't have a laying Q soon, this colony of bees with eventually die off. They will already be declining now and I thought (rightly or wrongly??) if they are Q-, wouldn't they be of better use strengthening my other colony? I am a new beekeeper and all advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

21 days is just something that happens in another parallel universe - way too early to think about failed mating IMHO. Leave for a couple more weeks before even checking and you might get a pleasant surprise.

 

[Islandbees]

Thanks Jenkins. Seems like I'm Okay to give it another couple of weeks. I like your last signature, never a truer word spoken

 

[YorkshireBees]

Thanks for the replies. I don't mind waiting a little longer at all. Just reading some threads people say after 21 days the queen will be poorly mates etc. if this isn't necessarily the case, and you've had success then I'll give it longer. I'll read up on finding queens in the mean time.
With regards to buying a queen in, I live on an island that is varroa free. Unfortunately in this case (but fortunately generally speaking) Bees are not allowed to be brought in. Due to this bad weather, other members of our association are having similar problems so new queens are in short supply.

Getting mated and starting to lay are 2 different things. As I said before I have had queens that were successfully mated not come into lay until I put a frame of eggs (test frame) into the hive something like 6 weeks after emergence! Then suddenly they started laying!

I have a couple of Nucs right now that are questionable if they have mated queens in but I realised yesterday they are short on stores so the queen will not lay many if any eggs!!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Getting mated and starting to lay are 2 different things. As I said before I have had queens that were successfully mated not come into lay until I put a frame of eggs (test frame) into the hive something like 6 weeks after emergence! Then suddenly they started laying!



I have a couple of Nucs right now that are questionable if they have mated queens in but I realised yesterday they are short on stores so the queen will not lay many if any eggs!!

Was it maybe stores on the test frame that acted as trigger?

 

[Islandbees]

The hive in question has 3 frames of stores in BB. I guess as they aren't feeding any brood so they are ok. However, my other Q+ hive is being fed at the moment as they have hardly any.
Whilst I'm on the subject of mating queens. How do folk feel about 20degree mating temperature theory. I'm I to take this literally or is it like the 21 day rule?? Just because, we've not had over 15 degree temps in the last few months and non forecast for the next week or so.

 

[oliver90owner]

people say after 21 days the queen will be poorly mates

Absolute tosh! JBM is right, there are some i d i o t s posting carp. It is this type of information that needs to be expunged from the internet, BKA's and even those with an extra B. I hope you have not read it in any 'good' bee book. If so, please give a heads-up so others can avoid reading it!

She likely has another three weeks in which to get mated successfully, but as always time is marching on.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

How do folk feel about 20degree mating temperature theory. I'm I to take this literally or is it like the 21 day rule?? .

If we waited for 20 degrees we'd never get any mated queens around here - got a half dozen nucs awaiting matings at the moment - the two 'latest' I'd not bothered inspecting over the last few weeks because it had been wet and cold during their ideal mating 'window' so I thought that if they had mated, it would have been in the last week or two - checked Saturday and the nucs were chock an block with sealed brood with some starting to emerge!! you never can tell, going out to check the others now!

 

[Islandbees]

Well that's encouraging anyway. Hopefully I'll know either way soon, got a wedding in France at the end of the month and I don't know if it's rude to ask them to wait a couple of weeks longer to get wed!!

 

[YorkshireBees]

Was it maybe stores on the test frame that acted as trigger?

No in the previous case it was definitely the frame of eggs that appeared to trigger the new queen to lay, even on the same frame! It happened that year in at least 2 hives.

Right now I have some nucs that I am waiting to see if the queens are mated successfully in but they have only a small patch of brood so far and then I realised they were struggling with virtually no stores! I have now added 2 full frames of store to each and will check again in 2-4 weeks.

 

[Mrs Shoot]

No in the previous case it was definitely the frame of eggs that appeared to trigger the new queen to lay, even on the same frame! It happened that year in at least 2 hives.

Found the same, popped a test frame in a nuc two weeks ago, checked last week eggs on the same frame. Put test frames in another 4 I'm waiting on last week. Will look on Wednesday as weather looks pants tomorrow. If QC's on any they will get knocked down and united with another hive to make them stronger. Any that don't make QC's will hopefully bring queens present into lay. Worked 4 times last year and 3 times this year.

 

[Islandbees]

I went down to my hives this morn just to check on feeding situation. The hive that I suspect is Q- we're terribly nowty but had plenty of stores, no eggs! The Q+ hive were there usually calm selves but had little stores and I topped up feed.
We've had a hell of a rain the last few days and I noticed in the corners of the hive inside was damp. Now, as they're being fed with a feeder in a super the crown board is exposed and not covered by the roof. I suspect the rain is getting in here as it's a weak point. Is this usual or am I doing something wrong? Thanks in advance

 

[Cussword]

How big is your feeder? You should be able to put the roof back on over the super.

 

[Islandbees]

How big is your feeder? You should be able to put the roof back on over the super.

Hi, the feeder is a 4 pint rapid feeder. It sits inside the super on the crown board and the roof goes on fine. But between the brood box and the super is the crown board which is exposed (edges can be seen externally). The roof is 4 inches deep so it doesn't cover the super completely.

 

[Mrs Shoot]

No in the previous case it was definitely the frame of eggs that appeared to trigger the new queen to lay, even on the same frame! It happened that year in at least 2 hives.

Found the same, popped a test frame in a nuc two weeks ago, checked last week eggs on the same frame. Put test frames in another 4 I'm waiting on last week. Will look on Wednesday as weather looks pants tomorrow. If QC's on any they will get knocked down and united with another hive to make them stronger. Any that don't make QC's will hopefully bring queens present into lay. Worked 4 times last year and 3 times this year.

Checked the 4 today, no QC's drawn on of them. Two have now got eggs and small larvae, the other 2 were calm with lots of highly polished cell. I think I saw one egg on the test frame. So going with 2 laying, and going to give the other 2 another week, then another test frame if still nothing.