Queenless colony

[MerryBee]

I decided this year to increase my colonies by taking out a small nuc with the queen when the colony showed preparation for swarming, and leaving the parent colony to raise a new queen.

I did this with my first hive 4 weeks ago. 3 weeks ago I cut out all QCs bar 1 (sealed) and left well alone. Had a look today hoping to see evidence of a new laying Q, but sadly not. The queen cell had emerged, but clearly queen was not laying. Just a queenless roar and all frames filled with nectar and pollen.

Stopped to have a think about what to do.

My second colony had the Q taken out just 2 days ago, so as of then had several unsealed QCs. I decided to take out a frame with a QC and give it to the queenless colony. This cell today was sealed.

I am now wondering if I did the right thing.
Does the queenless roar indicate complete absence of queen, virgin or mated? Should I have given the queenless colony a bit more time?

Opinions please.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

As a newbie myself, I have no confidence in the "Queenless roar" and/or my ability to detect it. If the open QC was sealed, that is a partial, not I think perfect, indication, that they were indeed Q-. Your risk is that they are not, and you have given them the opportunity to swarm. It's a tricky one, and others more experienced may have better ideas, but if you had somewhere to put the now-sealed QC and wait a week or so, I might do so. My personal view is that you are currently giving her the minimum time to lay, not the maximum. But a swarm would not be a disaster in these circumstances and if there is one, who knows, you may catch it. You're building your own experience, not just bees...

ADD; if you do that, check before from bee numbers that they haven't indeed swarmed...

 

[MerryBee]

A If the open QC was sealed, that is a partial, not I think perfect, indication, that they were indeed Q-. ..

Sorry, my original post was ambiguous. If I could figure out how to edit it I would.

The QC was sealed between me seeing it open in my other colony 2 days ago and today when I took it out to put in the queenless colony. It wasnt sealed by the queenless colony.

 

[snelgrove]

I decided this year to increase my colonies by taking out a small nuc with the queen when the colony showed preparation for swarming, and leaving the parent colony to raise a new queen.

I did this with my first hive 4 weeks ago. 3 weeks ago I cut out all QCs bar 1 (sealed) and left well alone. Had a look today hoping to see evidence of a new laying Q, but sadly not. The queen cell had emerged, but clearly queen was not laying. Just a queenless roar and all frames filled with nectar and pollen.

Stopped to have a think about what to do.

My second colony had the Q taken out just 2 days ago, so as of then had several unsealed QCs. I decided to take out a frame with a QC and give it to the queenless colony. This cell today was sealed.

I am now wondering if I did the right thing.
Does the queenless roar indicate complete absence of queen, virgin or mated? Should I have given the queenless colony a bit more time?

Opinions please.

First I would have taken the nuc with a unsealed cell rather than the queen, and artificial swarmed it or shook swarm. virgin queens take alot longer to start laying in strong colonies. also when selecting queen cell to leave always select an unsealed one. I wouldn't have added the unsealed cell just given more time to come into lay possibility of throwing a swarm if virgin present now

 

[MerryBee]

First I would have taken the nuc with a unsealed cell rather than the queen, and artificial swarmed it or shook swarm. virgin queens take alot longer to start laying in strong colonies. also when selecting queen cell to leave always select an unsealed one. I wouldn't have added the unsealed cell just given more time to come into lay possibility of throwing a swarm if virgin present now

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

"virgin queens take alot longer to start laying in strong colonies."
I didnt know that.

"when selecting queen cell to leave always select an unsealed one."
I did select an unsealed cell when I split the colony. By a week later, when I removed new emergency cells, the selected cell was of course sealed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Merrybee,
What you did is the standard method of swarm control by removing a nucleus.
see here where it is quite well explained.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

Three weeks from manipulation of the colony for a new queen to come into lay is the ideal situation. It often takes longer.
You say the frames are full of nectar and pollen.........are there polished cells in the middle of any of the frames?
I would take out that queen cell that you added latterly and just wait.
I bet everything will be OK and you have a queen of sorts in there.
As for "queen less roar" I have only heared that for half an hour after taking a queen out of a colony.....never much longer.
They might just have been cheesed off with your interference.
Any way...let us know how it goes

 

[MerryBee]

Merrybee,
What you did is the standard method of swarm control by removing a nucleus.
see here where it is quite well explained.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

Three weeks from manipulation of the colony for a new queen to come into lay is the ideal situation. It often takes longer.
You say the frames are full of nectar and pollen.........are there polished cells in the middle of any of the frames?
I would take out that queen cell that you added latterly and just wait.
I bet everything will be OK and you have a queen of sorts in there.
As for "queen less roar" I have only heared that for half an hour after taking a queen out of a colony.....never much longer.
They might just have been cheesed off with your interference.
Any way...let us know how it goes

Thanks for your reply Erica.

There was no sign of any polished cells that I could see, and I did look for them, so with the roar as well I was pretty convinced that it was queenless. But now I am doubting my interpretation, and thinking that I have been too hasty. So maybe you are right I should take the QC out and give her more time.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thanks for your reply Erica.

There was no sign of any polished cells that I could see, and I did look for them, so with the roar as well I was pretty convinced that it was queenless. But now I am doubting my interpretation, and thinking that I have been too hasty. So maybe you are right I should take the QC out and give her more time.

I would, but try and check they haven't swarmed. Or there may be not trace of it, which is a good result. And relax; patience is a learned skill. It's all good; no disasters.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

virgin queens take alot longer to start laying in strong colonies.

That's a really interesting fact. Does that make them better queens?

 

[Hawklord]

It's probably better to add a test frame rather than a queen cell.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's a really interesting fact. Does that make them better queens?

Not really - ideally you want them to mate as soon as possible.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I will bet, at short odds, that the QC is torn down and the origianl virgin is laying within a week. Any takers?

 

[Obee1]

I split my hive and was convinced the one queen cell I left did not result in a queen. However 33 days after split I found eggs. I think you have been hasty. I bet your queen will be there, so give it longer and rescue that queen cell you put in.

 

[beeno]

I will bet, at short odds, that the QC is torn down and the origianl virgin is laying within a week. Any takers?

NO

 

[Tomo]

Last year I was in a similar situation with a couple of hives. I was waiting patiently for Q to lay. Both Q's should have mated at the same time. One hive had eggs 3 weeks later all good, the other Q failed to turn up, eaten by bird, splatted on a windscreen, lost? who knows? Laying workers after 3 weeks. Dumped the lot in the woods 100m away, then took a frame of eggs from other hive all sorted. Problem being the lost time without replacement workers, hence no honey crop last year from that hive. This year got a nuc for a spare Q just in case. Seriously considering getting Q's from a beefarmer with less swarming habits. Good luck.

 

[MerryBee]

disaster averted

Just a quick update to let you know what happened to my queenless colony.

After taking advice from a number of sources I decided to leave the donated frame and QC in the hive. Four days later when I checked the donated QC was still there and 5 or 6 emergency cells had also been raised which I removed. Three days after that the queen had emerged. After a further 14 days I spotted eggs. At last! a new Queen after a total of seven weeks. So disaster averted.

Ten days later and she is going like a train with brood on 5 frames already.

Thanks to you all for your comments.

 

[BeeJayBee]

That's good news.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just a quick update to let you know what happened to my queenless colony.

After taking advice from a number of sources I decided to leave the donated frame and QC in the hive. Four days later when I checked the donated QC was still there and 5 or 6 emergency cells had also been raised which I removed. Three days after that the queen had emerged. After a further 14 days I spotted eggs. At last! a new Queen after a total of seven weeks. So disaster averted.

Ten days later and she is going like a train with brood on 5 frames already.

Thanks to you all for your comments.

Good result
Four days later 5 or 6 emergency cells had also been raised

That clinched it !
A test frame of sorts. They were, indeed, queen-less