Queenless colony rejects two new queens

[dearl]

Hi all,

I have a colony that turned very defensive this year.
They became unworkable and started to sting passers by.

I culled the old queen and left them until they were hopelessly queenless; no eggs or larvae etc.

I introduced a new queen slowly; a couple of days with the plastic tab in place before removing it. She wasn't accepted.

I tried again with another new queen but again she wasn't accepted.

The workers haven't started laying yet either but I really don't understand why the colony have effectively shot themselves in the foot.

Any ideas what may have happened here?

I'm also unsure as to what to do with the bees; do I just leave them to dwindle? Seems a sorry end.

 

[Ian123]

My money would be on there’s a queen present, to top it off I have always found more aggressive colonies more reluctant to accept any introduced queen. How long ago dig you squish the old girl

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nasty bees often do this but as Ian says there might be a queen
Test frame first
I always use a push in cage requeening tetchy bees. Even then I had one colony kill the new queen and raise queen cells on the eggs she had laid in the cage

 

[Beefriendly]

Basically bad tempered local bees are a nightmare to re queen to any other strain or typoe of bee..
The safest way is to introduce your queen to a nuc of nurse bees and when she is accepted and laying unite.
But if there is any doubt about the presence of a queen in your grumpy colony, as Ercia says, get a test frame in there. At the very least if will delay laying workers from appearing and hopefully confirm queenlessness.

 

[dearl]

Old queen culled in July.
I know mid summer is not the best time to requeen but their aggression left me no choice really.

I removed all queen cells, shook bees of all frames so I know they were in a hopeless position.

There are no eggs in the brood box and none in the supers (from workers). They've started to fill the brood box out with pollen too so there's not even anywhere for a queen to lay without the bees making some space.

I've been through the colony a few times and can't see another queen but I didn't consider that so I could go through them again with that in mind.

Are you thinking that there may be an unmated virgin knocking around in there somewhere?

I'm a relative novice as I've only been keeping them 10 years or so, but I've never once lost a colony so this feels like a strange failure.

Thank you for your thoughts on this.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi all,

I have a colony that turned very defensive this year.
They became unworkable and started to sting passers by.

I culled the old queen and left them until they were hopelessly queenless.

You would have been better off putting the new queen in immediately after killing the old one - candy proteced for a few days before allowing them to release her.
My money is on a missed QC resulting in a virgin queen lurking around in there

 

[For want of a better word]

Any queenless colony no matter what type they are will be grumpy, not a problem that is specific to local/native/Amm etc.

May be getting a bit late in the season up north, however...
Try a nuc with a laying queen over your colony with a queen excluder between,over a sheet of newspaper. Colonies will eventually merge.... After you have tried a test frame of course!

Chons da

 

[Beefriendly]

May be getting a bit late in the season up north, however...

Meaning what exactly?

 

[For want of a better word]

Meaning what exactly?

We possibly have a longer season down here in sunny Cornwall.....
Still open mating and raising queens.... plenty of Native drones still out and about!
Almost Mediterranean!!

Chons da

 

[Beefriendly]

Really.........��. Sounds very similar to current uuup north situation.

Currently we are debating whether we might get another super off the heather next week or bring them back....

 

[ShinySideUp]

I had a situation almost exactly like that of the OP. I gave them a test frame -- they raised queen cells then lost (or killed) their new queen, I gave them a new queen, they killed it. In the end the colony became lathargic and disinterested and so much reduced in numbers so I gave up and united them with another colony. Can't really give an explanation but I know they didn't have a queen and didn't seem to want one (anthropomorphising here I expect).

To new beekeepers let this be a lesson on why you must have more than one colony right from the very beginning. If this had happened to you and you only had one hive, you would no longer be a beekeeper.

 

[Antipodes]

Hi Dearl...I am curious about your rationale for waiting as you did to introduce the new queen?

Thanks.

 

[SDM]

Hi Dearl...I am curious about your rationale for waiting as you did to introduce the new queen?

Thanks.

It's pretty common advice given. Not the best imo
The theory being that they have no option but to accept the queen you give them if they are hopelessly queenless.

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks SDM. I'd never come across that method at all until I read the original post.

Dearl, a bit here about requeening savage hives....perhaps you could use brood from your other hive to get a small nuc going with a new queen, and then newspaper combine with what remains of the queenless bees? This is subject of course to you being absolutely sure there is no virgin queen in the hive. Have you tried to filter them through an excluder to see if you can find the queen that way?

https://bindaree.com.au/hints/requeening/

 

[dearl]

Thanks all.

I will go through them again to see if I can find an unmated queen in there. I have seen drones up until fairly recently but there's no eggs anywhere and I would have thought another queen world have had time to mate and start laying by now.

I only have the one hive.
I'm aware of the advantages of keeping more than 1 colony, but for me one has always worked well in terms of the time constraints I have.

For me, I'd rather keep one strong colony and be on top of its management (current situation the exception) rather than keepIng 3-4 possibly smaller, weaker ones as I did early on. Keeping bees in the middle of a village meant that swarm control is really my number one priority and I haven't lost a swarm since I switched to one hive.

I've had around 200lbs of honey for the last two seasons (100 this year), so in terms of yield the one hive has been been very productive.

However, with what's happened I have no backup in another hive so I am caught out.

I will probably start again with a swarm next year.

Any thoughts on how to manage the decline of the colony; do I just leave them to it?

 

[Antipodes]

Sorry Dearl, I must have confused number of posts with number of hives.

It's a shame for you particularly after having been successful for quite a while.

I had a colony once that became queenless, and then quite long in the tooth, but I managed to get them to produce a laying queen (having obtained some brood with eggs), but she failed only a few weeks into laying anyhow. The older bees apparently can reactivate their brood rearing ability to some extent ...but probably are not great.

 

[enrico]

Thanks all.

I will go through them again to see if I can find an unmated queen in there. I have seen drones up until fairly recently but there's no eggs anywhere and I would have thought another queen world have had time to mate and start laying by now.

I only have the one hive.
I'm aware of the advantages of keeping more than 1 colony, but for me one has always worked well in terms of the time constraints I have.

For me, I'd rather keep one strong colony and be on top of its management (current situation the exception) rather than keepIng 3-4 possibly smaller, weaker ones as I did early on. Keeping bees in the middle of a village meant that swarm control is really my number one priority and I haven't lost a swarm since I switched to one hive.

I've had around 200lbs of honey for the last two seasons (100 this year), so in terms of yield the one hive has been been very productive.

However, with what's happened I have no backup in another hive so I am caught out.

I will probably start again with a swarm next year.

Any thoughts on how to manage the decline of the colony; do I just leave them to it?

Depends if they are still grumpy and stinging locals! If that is the case and you want rid of them then destroy the bees in the hive.. seal the hive and slip a tray of petrol in. The fumes kill them. But, that is a last resort. If you have got a virgin in there then risk leaving them to see what happens.
E

 

[dearl]

I went through the colony again this afternoon.
Couldn't find a queen of any sort in there.
I did see a couple of drones too and they're usually kicked out by now if all is well.

I'll check again next weekend the suggestion about there being a queen in there still seems to make the most sense as to why they'd reject two introduced queens consecutively.

They do appear to be doomed, but their temperament has changed and they're not aggressive anymore.

 

[Popparand]

I had a small bunch (couldn't really call it a colony) of queenless ? bees that I left alone waiting for them to die out naturally. 4 weeks later they were still flying and there seemed to be more of them. Opened the broodbox and found new brood and now fingers crossed they are strong enough to go into the winter.

Moral of the story....just because you can't find her doesn't always mean she isn't there!

 

[dearl]

Just to let you know how this turned out....

No great surprise but the colony was definitely queenless and eventually the workers started to lay.

Oh well, starting again with a swarm next year it is.

Thanks again for the advice.