Queenless? Can someone confirm my diagnosis?

[Nakedapiarist]

A bit of case history - one of my colonies swarmed and I didn't have a spare brood box - this being my first year I also didn't have drawn comb so I hived them in a super on bare foundation. Fed a bit of fondant to encourage to draw it out but my plan ultimately was to simply reunite to the original colony and go to brood and a half.

I've not seen the (marked) queen for two weeks and three inspections so tonight I went in and made a serious search taking out any undrawn foundation to give myself plenty of space so I could also check the floor etc. No sign

There are a lot of drones in there.

There is brood but this is a typical pattern -

I've seen eggs and they are at the bottom of cells ( centre bottom they show up on the photo ) but those cells also haven't been fully drawn so are shallow. I've also seen instances of more than one larva in a cell. That brood looks patchy and like drone to me.

So what to do? The queen from the original colony has mated and is laying well, the colony is strong.Should I press ahead with reuniting and assume that a strong new queen will suppress further drone laying?

 

[Erichalfbee]

.Should I press ahead with reuniting and assume that a strong new queen will suppress further drone laying?

No
Shake them out some distance away

 

[Hawklord]

If the queen was there 2 weeks ago then it is too early to have laying workers. That means there must be some sort of queen there, which you will need to despatch before uniting.

 

[Nakedapiarist]

Eek, I've just looked at my notes. Three and a half weeks since i saw a queen in there .

For tipping out, before 7am or after 6pm are my options and how far away should i shake them out? ( or rather, how close can I get away with)

Thanks

 

[Erichalfbee]

For me...15 metres should do it. As for time you've got to give the bees a fighting chance to find their new home so it should be done when your others are flying. Can't you wait till you have a day off...it's not like it has to be done now!

 

[gregior]

Also i'm afraid any frames that have had drone brood in them can't really be used to make up the brood +1/2 as the cells will be enlarged to drone size so any subsequent brood in those cells will be drone too.

 

[Nakedapiarist]

All that wasted wax!

I'm thinking this as an action plan - give up on brood and a half. I have the colony with laying workers in a super and a recipient hive with one brood box and one super with excluder.

The garden's not huge, I also don't a want sky turning black with bees scenario by emptying a colony on the floor if I can avoid it. I have tolerant neighbours ( aside from Mr. Soft-Top ) but if I can bees in the air to a minimum...

So in the morning - move the hive across the garden ( 9m ), transfer all frames of brood to a nuc box along with all bees. Leave the frames of store in the hive.

Return hive to original position. Let the bees do their stuff. Come evening I will have a hive with about 4 frames of stores and foragers but no nurse bees plus a nuc box full of nurse bees and those naughty laying workers.

Take the super off the recipient hive, put on the box of foragers with news paper. Wait....

Agonise over how best to dispose of the bees in the nuc.

One the paper has been chewed through, take the store frames out of the 'donor' box and use them to replace undrawn frames in the super. Replace the super.

Treat the parrots to some lovely crunch drone larvae.

Does seem like a sensible plan of action?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

All that wasted wax!

I'm thinking this as an action plan - give up on brood and a half. I have the colony with laying workers in a super and a recipient hive with one brood box and one super with excluder.

The garden's not huge, I also don't a want sky turning black with bees scenario by emptying a colony on the floor if I can avoid it. I have tolerant neighbours ( aside from Mr. Soft-Top ) but if I can bees in the air to a minimum...

So in the morning - move the hive across the garden ( 9m ), transfer all frames of brood to a nuc box along with all bees. Leave the frames of store in the hive.

Return hive to original position. Let the bees do their stuff. Come evening I will have a hive with about 4 frames of stores and foragers but no nurse bees plus a nuc box full of nurse bees and those naughty laying workers.

Take the super off the recipient hive, put on the box of foragers with news paper. Wait....

Agonise over how best to dispose of the bees in the nuc.

One the paper has been chewed through, take the store frames out of the 'donor' box and use them to replace undrawn frames in the super. Replace the super.

Treat the parrots to some lovely crunch drone larvae.

Does seem like a sensible plan of action?

No

laying workers isn't the issue - you can unite a colony with laying workers no problem - the strong queen pheremones in the new colony will supress their laying instinct.
The evidence points towards the possibility of a queen of some kind in there - you either have to find her or do a shakeout. It doesn't have to be fifteen yards away, ten fifteen feet would do.

Now you see the joys of having bees in a small garden

 

[Nakedapiarist]

What's the evidence for there being a queen of some sort?
I was mistaken in the two weeks - it was three and a half. Unless my marked queen is still in there and very good at hiding ( which is possible and emptying the whole colony should reveal ) I don't know where one would have come from - there was no drawn comb in the box so I'd have noticed a queen cell appearing.
Damn bees are confusing!

 

[Hivemaker.]

Laying workers.

 

[Roola]

All that wasted wax!

Not really wasted, empty the shallow of bees by shaking into the bb, place QE on wait for drones to hatch. They wont be able to get through the QE and may get stuck so you need to keep an eye on timings but you can then let them through during the inspection or you could cull them for varroa management prior to emergence if you don't want your hive full of drones. Once clear of drones use what was the drawn shallow as a super.

 

[oliver90owner]

Before shaking out, if that is what you decide, do consider what will happen to the bees. There needs to be another hive in close proximity. Just one of those small issues/details not considered/thought of when advising to simply shake them out.

 

[Nakedapiarist]

Before shaking out, if that is what you decide, do consider what will happen to the bees. There needs to be another hive in close proximity. Just one of those small issues/details not considered/thought of when advising to simply shake them out.

I presume they'll head back to the original site and reoccupy the hive leaving any nurse bees milling around aimlessly.

 

[pargyle]

I presume they'll head back to the original site and reoccupy the hive leaving any nurse bees milling around aimlessly.

No .. if you shake them out you have to remove the original hive so that there is no hive for them to return to. They will then look around for another hive and will beg their way into it .. foragers will probably take a gift of pollen to assist their acceptance. All the bees can fly so any nurse bees will go as well.

Having said that .. I don't think shaking out is necessary - you can do a combine as per JBM. It will stop the laying workers .. the combs are not wasted and even the drones are going to emerge and be useful ... somewhere.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I presume they'll head back to the original site and reoccupy the hive leaving any nurse bees milling around aimlessly.

You take away everything from the original site - the bees (especially the 'nurse bees') will beg their way into the other hives

 

[Nakedapiarist]

I think we might be talking two different methods here -

I thought the idea of shaking out was that laying workers tend to be young bees that haven't left the nest so can't return to the site when dumped out whereas older bees that have made orientation flights can find their way back ( I read it in a book ).

I think your plan is to force the bees to redistribute into my other hives by giving them nowhere else to go. Have I got that straight in my muddled mind?

Either way it sounds like it might not be necessary - I'll go through the hive tonight taking out every comb to make absolutely certain I don't have a queen hiding in a corner before trying to unite and I'll take the opportunity to check the drone brood for mites.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I thought the idea of shaking out was that laying workers tend to be young bees that haven't left the nest so can't return to the site when dumped out whereas older bees that have made orientation flights can find their way back ( I read it in a book ).

Oh no not 'the book' again! - whatever, what you read was totally wrong - laying workers can be any age, doesn't really matter whether they have orientated as you don't really want them to go back where the hive was

Shaking out is handy if you cannot find an unwanted queen - she won't find her way into anywhere thus problem solved with less effort if DLQ or whatever. it's also a way of distributing the bees out if you have a few hives in the apiary or have a lot of laying workers. I tend to shake out if it's a hopelessly queenless colony with old bees on the way out - just saves all the effort of an unite.
Nurse bees are a valuable workforce (for us and the bees) so are gladly welcome into any colony if they come begging.

Really must track down this book and make a nice big bonfire - with the author on top!

Sounds like a good plan. another alternative is to shake out put the hive back on the stand then all the bees will find their way home except for the queen. Then unite

 

[Hawklord]

Depends on the size of the colony, but I usually shake the frames out over a few days. This stops a mass of bees trying to beg their way into the nearest colony. First I move the hive, this gets rid of the flyers. Next day I shake a couple of frames out and move the hive again.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

seems like I over streamlined my previous reply - my last paragraph

Sounds like a good plan. another alternative is to shake out put the hive back on the stand then all the bees will find their way home except for the queen. Then unite

Was meant to be in response to:

Either way it sounds like it might not be necessary - I'll go through the hive tonight taking out every comb to make absolutely certain I don't have a queen hiding in a corner before trying to unite and I'll take the opportunity to check the drone brood for mites.

 

[tudorcd]

Oh no not 'the book' again! - whatever, what you read was totally wrong - laying workers can be any age, doesn't really matter whether they have orientated as you don't really want them to go back where the hive was

Shaking out is handy if you cannot find an unwanted queen - she won't find her way into anywhere thus problem solved with less effort if DLQ or whatever. it's also a way of distributing the bees out if you have a few hives in the apiary or have a lot of laying workers. I tend to shake out if it's a hopelessly queenless colony with old bees on the way out - just saves all the effort of an unite.
Nurse bees are a valuable workforce (for us and the bees) so are gladly welcome into any colony if they come begging.

Really must track down this book and make a nice big bonfire - with the author on top!

Sounds like a good plan. another alternative is to shake out put the hive back on the stand then all the bees will find their way home except for the queen. Then unite

I am a bit confused.
Is this a hive with laying workers, or a drone laying queen ?
Quite different interventions.
Thanks.