Queen yet to lay --queen cells?

[ShinySideUp]

I won't go into detail about my quandry just a 'simple' question:

Let's say I have a queen that has hatched out but either hasn't yet mated or is not yet laying eggs, will the workers continue to create supercedure or emergency queen cells until they are happy with the new queen (there is no old queen).

 

[Dadnlad]

If there is no old queen then they have nothing to make more emergency or supercedure cells from - unless you add them in the form of a test frame

Keep your eyes peeled for areas of brood comb with cells that look 'polished' ready for the new queen to lay in - a sure sign they are happy they have a new egg-laying machine lined up

 

[sherwood]

Its fundimental really. the workers can only make a queen from a hatched lava upto 3 days old. If no queen has been laing in the hive int he last 6 days they ar not going to have any raw material to raise a queen from.solutions
are:1 obtain a new queen
2.introduce some eggs from another hive (test frame)
3.unite with another hive
4. use queenless colony as a queen rearing colony

 

[ShinySideUp]

The old queen was removed from the hive on the 12th June due to a supercedure cell (sealed) being discovered and the queen getting pushed around by the workers. This queen is now happily laying in a nuc box. So the last egg she could have laid was on 12th June and I have left the hive unexamined until today, 26th June, 14 days exactly. I found what looked like 1 supercedure cell at the edge of one frame and 1 emergency queen cell (bent downwards cell) in the middle of an adjacent frame; both cells are sealed.

I don't know when they were sealed but I do know that they were not there, or even started, 14 days ago, when the last egg was laid. How does this fit with the timescale of bee nurturing. My opinion is that these could be cells that were built before the new queen hatched but as she may not have mated yet then the workers could be nurturing them. Does this make sense?

I didn't realise until now how important it is to keep notes on what was seen and when.

 

[Millet]

The old queen was removed from the hive on the 12th June due to a supercedure cell (sealed) being discovered and the queen getting pushed around by the workers. This queen is now happily laying in a nuc box. So the last egg she could have laid was on 12th June and I have left the hive unexamined until today, 26th June, 14 days exactly. I found what looked like 1 supercedure cell at the edge of one frame and 1 emergency queen cell (bent downwards cell) in the middle of an adjacent frame; both cells are sealed.

I don't know when they were sealed but I do know that they were not there, or even started, 14 days ago, when the last egg was laid. How does this fit with the timescale of bee nurturing. My opinion is that these could be cells that were built before the new queen hatched but as she may not have mated yet then the workers could be nurturing them. Does this make sense?

I didn't realise until now how important it is to keep notes on what was seen and when.

Not to me it does not..

 

[ShinySideUp]

So what should I do? Leave it and see what happens? I am going to Ireland for a week starting Sunday so my next inspection cannot be for another thirteen days so anything I do has to be done before Saturday.

 

[pargyle]

The old queen was removed from the hive on the 12th June due to a supercedure cell (sealed) being discovered and the queen getting pushed around by the workers. This queen is now happily laying in a nuc box. So the last egg she could have laid was on 12th June and I have left the hive unexamined until today, 26th June, 14 days exactly. I found what looked like 1 supercedure cell at the edge of one frame and 1 emergency queen cell (bent downwards cell) in the middle of an adjacent frame; both cells are sealed.

I don't know when they were sealed but I do know that they were not there, or even started, 14 days ago, when the last egg was laid. How does this fit with the timescale of bee nurturing. My opinion is that these could be cells that were built before the new queen hatched but as she may not have mated yet then the workers could be nurturing them. Does this make sense?

I didn't realise until now how important it is to keep notes on what was seen and when.

Why would you remove the queen from a hive that is superceding her ? Last thing I would do ....the bees know what they are doing if it's supercedure - best to let them get on with it - the old queen would have continued to lay until they decided the new queen was fit for purpose and then they would despatch her ... you've intefered with the normal behaviour of your bees and deliberately made the colony queenless in a non-swarming situation. Never a good idea in my opinion,

What to do now ... read a few more bee books and stop messing about with them ...

 

[maddydog]

I reckon there is a good chance that colony is hopelessly q-. I'd combine the old q nuc with it and let nature takes its course. There is a reason why the bees were superceding their q.

 

[drex]

Not quite with you here, but I think you have two sealed queen cells, 14 days old at the eldest. Queen emerges after 16 days, then can take up to 3 weeks to come into lay ( but usually about 10 days) . Let them be.

 

[Swarm]

 

[Eyeman]

The old queen was removed from the hive on the 12th June due to a supercedure cell (sealed) being discovered and the queen getting pushed around by the workers. This queen is now happily laying in a nuc box. So the last egg she could have laid was on 12th June and I have left the hive unexamined until today, 26th June, 14 days exactly. I found what looked like 1 supercedure cell at the edge of one frame and 1 emergency queen cell (bent downwards cell) in the middle of an adjacent frame; both cells are sealed.

I don't know when they were sealed but I do know that they were not there, or even started, 14 days ago, when the last egg was laid. How does this fit with the timescale of bee nurturing. My opinion is that these could be cells that were built before the new queen hatched but as she may not have mated yet then the workers could be nurturing them. Does this make sense?

I didn't realise until now how important it is to keep notes on what was seen and when.

1. If the vrigin emerged from the first 'supercedure cell' which was capped on the 12 June she would have likely either torn down the 2 cells you are seeing now or have swarmed. So you are likely to be queen less
2. The 2 cells you have discovered are emergency QC's and if started from 1 day old larvae will be emerging within 2 days.

I would check them towards the end of the day in 3-4 days time to make sure the queen(s) have emerged and if so the leave them to mate.

 

[Millet]

Not quite with you here, but I think you have two sealed queen cells, 14 days old at the eldest. Queen emerges after 16 days, then can take up to 3 weeks to come into lay ( but usually about 10 days) . Let them be.

They could also be 8 / 9 days old at the youngest.. with another 8 / 9 days before they emerge

 

[ShinySideUp]

Why would you remove the queen from a hive that is superceding her ? Last thing I would do ....the bees know what they are doing if it's supercedure - best to let them get on with it - the old queen would have continued to lay until they decided the new queen was fit for purpose and then they would despatch her ... you've intefered with the normal behaviour of your bees and deliberately made the colony queenless in a non-swarming situation. Never a good idea in my opinion,

What to do now ... read a few more bee books and stop messing about with them ...

Unfortunately, there was no real way to tell whether it was truly a supercedure cell or a swarm cell as the hive was (is) well-packed with bees (on eight frames at least, indeed at night loads of them are outside) and I decided that since the queen was laying well I would use her in another colony, which is going very well indeed, it is docile and productive. Perhaps I just hate to throw anything away that is still working fine.

I know I am making mistakes and I have read many bee books and done a long course as well but things are never the way they look in the books -- ever used the instructions from a Haynes Manual but on a car that is not brand new, looks fine in those shiny pictures but once everything is covered in crud and rust after ten years? Different matter entirely.

There are two queen cells in the hive so I intend to do nothing and go on my holiday next week and leave them to do what they need to do. As with many things, if you are in a hole, stop digging.

 

[For want of a better word]

Unfortunately, there was no real way to tell whether it was truly a supercedure cell or a swarm cell as the hive was (is) well-packed with bees (on eight frames at least, indeed at night loads of them are outside) and I decided that since the queen was laying well I would use her in another colony, which is going very well indeed, it is docile and productive. Perhaps I just hate to throw anything away that is still working fine.

I know I am making mistakes and I have read many bee books and done a long course as well but things are never the way they look in the books -- ever used the instructions from a Haynes Manual but on a car that is not brand new, looks fine in those shiny pictures but once everything is covered in crud and rust after ten years? Different matter entirely.

There are two queen cells in the hive so I intend to do nothing and go on my holiday next week and leave them to do what they need to do. As with many things, if you are in a hole, stop digging.

In 50 years of beekeeping one would have thought you would know everything.... what I have learned is that some self appointed experts are not and most of the books cut and paste the incorrect information.
However .... generally... if you have 2 or 3 queen cells on a frame they are probably supercedure cells.... more than that and... generally... around the margins and depending upon the state of the colony... they are swarm cells.
Emergency cells are brought on from later and older larvae and often will have had a couple of brood cells below them removed to give space....
but then do not ask me as I an definitely no expert!

As old Pargie says .. stop fussing and poking around the bees and go away and enjoy you hols

Yeghes da

 

[ShinySideUp]

Yes, I'm over-concerned. I keep forgetting that I don't have to look after them the same way I do my dogs, rabbits and guinea pigs...pond fish, tropical fish, wife, bike, car, house etc etc. Blimey, I'm thinking bees are the easiest thing to look after.

Consider me, on holiday.

 

[pargyle]

Yes, I'm over-concerned. I keep forgetting that I don't have to look after them the same way I do my dogs, rabbits and guinea pigs...pond fish, tropical fish, wife, bike, car, house etc etc. Blimey, I'm thinking bees are the easiest thing to look after.

Consider me, on holiday.

Best thing you can do ... as above ... from Icanhopit ... it's very difficult in the early days, trust me... we've all been there, poking around, wondering what they are up to, worrying that they are not doing what you thought they should be doing and what the books state CATEGORICALLY they will do ... It's hard to step back and trust the little beggars but always try and remember they've been around on the planet and surviving - indeed thriving as long as and a lot longer than most living organisms on the planet. They will be around long after mankind has destroyed the environment we live in and despite the best efforts of well meaning beekeepers 'helping' them !

I know what you mean about the Haynes Motor Manuals .. I well remember those few words about my ancient Austin Healey .. nearly 50 years ago now .. "Undo the set bolts and withdraw the half shaft" - Yeh - three days later with the aid of a 20lb slide hammer, a modified jig to hold it in place, the differential out of the axle and three strapping blokes taking it in turn to slam the slide weight along the bar ... it finally came out .. in two halves (well at least one half came out) ... the other half ? Well Haynes did not have any suggestions for that !!!

Fortunately, the Haynes Beekeeping Manual is much more specific in its advice generally....

 

[ShinySideUp]

Fortunately, the Haynes Beekeeping Manual is much more specific in its advice generally....

Apparently it's a good book, I'll take a look one day.

 

[pargyle]

Apparently it's a good book, I'll take a look one day.

Yes, actually it is ... it leads you, in pictures and fairly simple terms through the beekeeping year ...essential reading in your first year - not perfect but one of the best.

 

[Millet]

Yes, actually it is ... it leads you, in pictures and fairly simple terms through the beekeeping year ...essential reading in your first year - not perfect but one of the best.

It's not the kamasutra but the haynes bee manual pulled me safe for several years , hands on experience and talking to someone who knows what they are doing helps ten fold.

 

[Karsal]

The old queen was removed from the hive on the 12th June due to a supercedure cell (sealed) being discovered and the queen getting pushed around by the workers. This queen is now happily laying in a nuc box. So the last egg she could have laid was on 12th June and I have left the hive unexamined until today, 26th June, 14 days exactly. I found what looked like 1 supercedure cell at the edge of one frame and 1 emergency queen cell (bent downwards cell) in the middle of an adjacent frame; both cells are sealed.

I don't know when they were sealed but I do know that they were not there, or even started, 14 days ago, when the last egg was laid. How does this fit with the timescale of bee nurturing. My opinion is that these could be cells that were built before the new queen hatched but as she may not have mated yet then the workers could be nurturing them. Does this make sense?

I didn't realise until now how important it is to keep notes on what was seen and when.

Once you found a supercedure cell you should have sealed the hive back up with the old queen still inside and left the bees to their own devices. I have left mine for three full weeks after discovering a supercedure cell. This allows the new queen to hatch mature and if the weather is good go on her mating flights.
I do find that we beekeepers tend to overthink and presume we know what is occurring inside our hives at times.
Beekeeping requires a lot of patience and the less we rush and interfere in their natural behavior the better your colony will be.