Queen Replacement

[markb2603]

I’ve finally managed to get a couple of queens on order for my 2 nucs which are currently in the process of requeening from undesirable genetics. The new queens are due to arrive in 7-10 days. Should I get rid of existing queen cells (emerging this weekend) in the nucs now to make them completely queenless or should I let them carry on down the requeening road and when I have the bought in queens, dispatch and replace straight away?

 

[Anduril]

I would get rid of all the queen cells. If you leave them to emerge it will cause you as the beekeeper a whole host of problems. Are you confident enough to be able to find virgin queens in the nucs, they may fly off when you look for them. If you can't find them there are tricks to use. They may be on mating flights or they could be lost on the mating flights, when you introduce the new queens. It could be quite stressful, so you need to be ahead of the game.

 

[pargyle]

How many queen cells have you left in the Nucs ? If it's just one in each Nuc I'd be inclined to leave them to emerge - if they emerge at the weekend then they are not going to be mated within the time that your new queen is going to arrive so her pheremones will not be that strong.

If you are confident about finding the queen then it won't be that difficult to remove the virgins and introduce your bought in queens. If you are not confident about finding the queen you might consider caging the cells on the frame they are on so you know where she is going to be and she will be easy to locate. As it's a nuc you could also turn the entrance disc round to the queen excluder slots so that (in the unlikely event) your virgins did feel ready for their mating flight they can't get out.

Alternatively, if you are sure of your dates you could release the queens yourself and put them in a queen cage and leave them in the colony until you know your new queens are here.

 

[Blunt Spike]

How many queen cells have you left in the Nucs ? If it's just one in each Nuc I'd be inclined to leave them to emerge - if they emerge at the weekend then they are not going to be mated within the time that your new queen is going to arrive so her pheremones will not be that strong.

If you are confident about finding the queen then it won't be that difficult to remove the virgins and introduce your bought in queens. If you are not confident about finding the queen you might consider caging the cells on the frame they are on so you know where she is going to be and she will be easy to locate. As it's a nuc you could also turn the entrance disc round to the queen excluder slots so that (in the unlikely event) your virgins did feel ready for their mating flight they can't get out.

Alternatively, if you are sure of your dates you could release the queens yourself and put them in a queen cage and leave them in the colony until you know your new queens are here.

Not being argumentative here, but, what is the advantage of this? The risk of having a virgin queen running around vs knocking the cells back now and not having that risk seems a no brainer..... I therefore know that there is a good reason that I'm not understanding, and I want to learn.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I would be inclined to remove the queencells - virgins can be difficult to find. If, in the process of removing them, you find a viable virgin, then you might like to cage her until the mated queens arrive. Depending on the amount of brood in the nucs which you have not said, you would not want to have a broodless and queenless colony for a week or more as they might start to turn (into laying workers).

 

[pargyle]

Not being argumentative here, but, what is the advantage of this? The risk of having a virgin queen running around vs knocking the cells back now and not having that risk seems a no brainer..... I therefore know that there is a good reason that I'm not understanding, and I want to learn.

Queenless colonies rapidly become agitated ... it's going to be at least 7 - possibly 10 days before the new queens arrive and the virgins are due to emerge this weekend ... you have colonies with (apparently) undesireable traits that could be queenless, if you knock down the cells, for 10 days with no way of starting emergency queen cells. They are going to be a bit excitable ... if there is still a queen in there, captive or not, they will be calmer and swapping the virgins for the new mated queens .. probably easier.

But ...like everything in beekeeping, there's more than one path to a successful outcome and you never really know what that path is the one the bees want anyway !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Not being argumentative here, but, what is the advantage of this? The risk of having a virgin queen running around vs knocking the cells back now and not having that risk seems a no brainer..... I therefore know that there is a good reason that I'm not understanding, and I want to learn.

there isn't really a good reason that I can see - if there was a mated queen in there, fair enough, but newly emerged virgins can be a bugger to find

 

[Anduril]

Not being argumentative here, but, what is the advantage of this? The risk of having a virgin queen running around vs knocking the cells back now and not having that risk seems a no brainer..... I therefore know that there is a good reason that I'm not understanding, and I want to learn.

No advantage at all. The scenario you would be up against is this: although the example I'm using is an incubator.
Before I used the proper kits, I placed a cut queen cell from a frame and placed it into a hair roller. When the queen emerged she went back up to the cell and ate through the wax and I found her freely moving around in the incubator. This is one possibility that may happen.

 

[markb2603]

Got word that queens will now actually arrive on Tuesday so went down and removed all queen cells and added a frame of BIAS to each nuc this afternoon. I’ll open up on Tuesday and remove and new queen cells on the frames added today and pull the tab on the queen cage and insert.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

leave the tab on overnight an then remove

 

[ericbeaumont]

arrive on Tuesday

Queen acceptance can be improved with a syrup feed prior to introduction, unless nectar is piling in, of course.

 

[Beedogg]

My only prior experience of introducing a bought queen into a colony ended in disaster. I have since re-tried it and I'll find out later today if it worked.

On the previous attempt I split a very defensive colony, aiming to requeen one half and then re-unite both under the new queen. So far so good.
I took down all of the QCs produced by the Q- part of the colony a few hours before I introduced the new queen.
I did the tab thing 48 hours later and all seemed well - until I looked in 6 days later and found no queen, but further QCs and the introduced queen dead outside the hive.
My self-critique is that I must have introduced the new queen before the colony had become hopelessly Q-, and that they had preferred to raise new QCs (from larvae that cannot have been less than 6 days old) rather than accept a new queen.
In my re-attempt I made sure that they were truly hopelessly Q-, and we'll see later today if that was successful.

 

[markb2603]

My only prior experience of introducing a bought queen into a colony ended in disaster. I have since re-tried it and I'll find out later today if it worked.

On the previous attempt I split a very defensive colony, aiming to requeen one half and then re-unite both under the new queen. So far so good.
I took down all of the QCs produced by the Q- part of the colony a few hours before I introduced the new queen.
I did the tab thing 48 hours later and all seemed well - until I looked in 6 days later and found no queen, but further QCs and the introduced queen dead outside the hive.
My self-critique is that I must have introduced the new queen before the colony had become hopelessly Q-, and that they had preferred to raise new QCs (from larvae that cannot have been less than 6 days old) rather than accept a new queen.
In my re-attempt I made sure that they were truly hopelessly Q-, and we'll see later today if that was successful.

Good Luck I hope it’s successful for you!

I introduced my queens to the nucs yesterday, both are definitely hopelessly Q- with only capped brood available to them. Put the queens in between 2 frames of capped brood. Watched each for about 5 minutes and there wasn’t much interest paid to the queen cage. I was almost expecting an instant balling of the cage. I left the tab on the cage and will remove them later this morning and leave them for a week. Fingers crossed.

Do let us know if yours was successful.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Fingers crossed

I've yet to use one, but word is that push-in cages lead to success.

 

[markb2603]

I had seen a lot of info about the success with those cages. I couldn’t source one easily in Ireland in the timeframes I had but I might get one or two for next time. Are they a new device on the market?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I had seen a lot of info about the success with those cages. I couldn’t source one easily in Ireland in the timeframes I had but I might get one or two for next time. Are they a new device on the market?

Make your own out of varroa mesh. It’s easy. You can make it any size and push that well into the wax right to the mid rib. Only the most determined bees will tunnel in.
If you’re uneasy about handling the queen to put her in you can dig out the fondant in the introduction cage and put the whole thing in.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Are they a new device on the market?

Check out the link for full info & how-to-make videos.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My self-critique is that I must have introduced the new queen before the colony had become hopelessly Q-

I always find it better to introduce the new queen immediately on making the colony queenless

 

[Beedogg]

Checked yesterday and my new queen is running about happily. So that seems to have worked.

There does seem to be quite conflicting advice on this. One school of thought saying replace the queen immediately; and one saying wait until the colony is hopelessly Q-. I'm far too inexperienced to comment beyond stating what happened to me - which could of course be down to many factors.

Anyway, I'm just pleased that I've now got a new queen and once she starts laying I'll re-combine the two parts of the old colony and hopefully improve their manners.

 

[ericbeaumont]

introduce the new queen immediately on making the colony queenless

One school of thought saying replace the queen immediately; and one saying wait until the colony is hopelessly Q-

Does JBM's success depend on the type of cage?

I can imagine immediate intro using a push-in cage would be effective, but the little yellow cage with the tab less so: fill with fondant & break the tab straight away, or release by hand after a day? Or a week? Smoke the bees when releasing her? Dip her in water?

I've tried a few of these variants and have yet to reduce the worry.