QC's in spilt hive (AS) - Advice required.

[Inkywillow]

Hi all, this is my first post on the forum so please be gentle with me.

About 3 weeks ago I split the colony in my hive (A) as it was showing signs of swarming (Eggs in queen cells).

Basically, I moved Hive A a couple of meters to the side of new Hive B which I placed onto Hive A's old stand. I then took 2 frames of stores and 2 frames of brood of all stages from Hive A and placed them in Hive B. One of these frames contained a sealed queen cell (I took down all of the others).

So today I checked in on Hive B to see how they where getting on and found 5 frames loaded with honey and pollen but no signs of eggs, I didn't see a queen either. On the frame that had held the original queen cell I found TWO opened queens cells (It's the first time that I have seen QC's like this but they look like they had been opened) and a third very small SEALED queen cell.

There also seemed to be quite a lot of drones.

Hive A (which kept the original queen) is doing fine. Loads of bees, 6 frames of brood and starting to draw out the remaining foundation.

Could anybody please advise on a course of action for Hive B.

Many thanks in advance...

Tom

 

[Polyanwood]

Hello Tom. Welcome to the Forum.

I wonder if you did the artificial swarm correctly. It doesn't sound quite right.

Normally you find the queen and you put her on one frame of brood and a couple of frames of stores, with no QCs in a new box on the old site. Did you do this? Did you actually see the queen?

Then in the old box on the new site, you leave one or two QCs only and they make a new queen.


Normally the bees swarm when the first QC is sealed. If you put your queen in the colony with a sealed QC, even if you do an artificial swarm, they are likleyt to swarm.

 

[oliver90owner]

Leave it alone for a couple of weeks.

It may have helped to give it a super at some time.

You should maybe have artificially swarmed your colony instead of your messing it about. A/S is a tried and tested method, developed to avoid all the problems you have seen or will see. There are several very evident glitches with what you have done. Can you see them?

RAB

 

[Inkywillow]

Thanks for your replies, it's fun this bee keeping lark eh?

@Polyanwood Thanks.

Normally you find the queen and you put her on one frame of brood and a couple of frames of stores, with no QCs in a new box on the old site. Did you do this? Did you actually see the queen?

This is what I did EXCEPT...
1. I moved 2 frames of brood.
2. I couldn't find the Queen. (I have heard and read that this is OK to do if you can't find the queen. Am I wrong here?)

Normally the bees swarm when the first QC is sealed. If you put your queen in the colony with a sealed QC, even if you do an artificial swarm, they are likely to swarm.

Yes, this is what I thought and I was surprised to see the QC closed. I first saw the queen cells containing eggs a couple of days before I split the hive and thought that I still had a little more time than I did. I must have missed one that was a little further gone than the rest??? Why they hadn't swarmed already, I don't know.

@oliver90owner

You should maybe have artificially swarmed your colony instead of your messing it about. A/S is a tried and tested method, developed to avoid all the problems you have seen or will see.

I thought that was what I was doing! I was under the impression that this was how an AS was done when the queen can't be found.

There are several very evident glitches with what you have done. Can you see them?

eeer... would the main "glitch" be that I was supposed to end up with the old queen and the flying bees in the new hive (on the old site) and the house bees and the queen cell in the old hive (on the new site). Whereas I have put the flying bees together with the queen cell (old site - new hive) and the old queen with the brood and stores (old hive - new site)?

So what will have happened to the queens from the two open cells, are they worth looking for or should I leave well alone?

 

[Flatters]

Hi Inkywillow and welcome to the forum,

My understanding to do an AS properly you must find the queen. I did my first AS today and the colony was ready for it with developed but not closed QCs. I knew the queen was there as there was plenty of brood and eggs. She was a late queen from last year so I did not get a chance to clip and mark her. In the three inspections done so far this year I have not found her even though she was present.

Today though I knew I had to find her to do the AS. I have a double brood box National. My 13 year old son helped me. We found the queen in the upper brood on the seventh frame but before we could move the frame she jumped off it into the brood box. We then had to go through both BCs twice and still could not find the queen. The bees were getting tetchy so we closed up and gave it an hour.

We then went back in and went through the frames again and found her in the bottom BC. She and the frame she was on was transferred to a new BC with frames of foundation and placed on the original site with the partly filled super. We also gave them some syrup to help.

The old BCs with the brood was then placed in a different position. The idea is that the flying bees come back and join the old queen. Even though it is on the old site it is a new and very bare home for them so they are fooled into thinking they have swarmed.

In the other hive there is enough bees left and of course all the eggs, larvae and QCs for them to realise that the queen has gone so they continue to nurture the QCs.

I think this is correct and perhaps a determined inspection with the sole purpose of finding the queen would have been the best option. It was time consuming and I don’t like messing with the bees for such a long period, but I felt that if I did not find the queen and did a split it would then have been relying on luck. Leaving the queen with QCs may not supress the swarming instinct.

The BBKA News letter for May 2011 and Ted Hooper were a great help for me but it took four or five readings to fully understand the process.
Good luck with the split you have done and perhaps Rab’s advice of leaving them alone for a bit may be the best thing to do to see how they sort things out?

 

[oliver90owner]

And all the foragers filled up the frames with honey and pollen as they kept collecting and nothing was being used for new brood!

The old queen will likely set about swarming shortly, again as she was not artificially swarmed, just the colony weakened byremoval of brood and bees.

You used a single sealed cell - that could have been empty!

With a sealed queen cell, you were actually lucky the colony had not already swarmed.

Queen cells are very fragile when sealed and the potential queen damaged with any shaking or jarring.

Apart from those few points, you did fine.

You will reflect on your mistakes and maybe get it right next time. Hopefully you will get out of it without further trouble, but remember all these manipulations have a reason and the procedure was refined a long time ago. They knew what worked, what didn't, and the precautions neede to ensure, as far as possible, a smooth transition from potentially swarming to no further swarming for the present season.

Regards, RAB

 

[Inkywillow]

Thanks for your replies, I'll leave the new hive alone for a couple of weeks and see what happens and I'll be sure to find the queen first next time.

I have two questions though:

1. The new hive is warm way with the unsealed and opened QC's on the frame nearest the entrance, this and the 5 frames next to it are full of pollen, nectar and honey with no room for brood. The rest of the frames are foundation so.... should I change the order of the frames at all before I leave them to it for a fortnight?

2. What should I do if the old queen shows signs of swarming again in the old hive?

Cheers...

Tom

 

[oliver90owner]

With all the space congested with stores, I would suggest you need to try to alleviate the problem somehow. What is more, if this honey is oilseed rape sourced, it may start to crystallise in the hive.

You could move some of these frames to your other colony, replacing with frames with emerging brood. Your other hive can be encouraged to move it into the super by placing it adjacent to the brood nest. But only a frame at a time as your virgin queen box may well be getting short of house bees.

The aswer to your second question is ... A/S it, of course!

If you are looking for increase, no particular problem. If not, one generally replaces the old queen, after removal by re-uniting the two parts.

Regards, RAB

 

[Inkywillow]

Thanks again for the replies, OK, the weather is fine today so I will pop down and take a frame of honey (mostly Dandelion here at the mo) from the new hive and swap it for a frame of emerging brood from the old hive, right? I'll put the honey frame in next to the brood nest and the frame of brood next to the frame that had the queen cells on it.

Wish me luck...