Porter bee escapes - cover or not?

[Poly Hive]

Some pics here for you.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=11959

PH

 

[MandF]

For those who cover the crownboard holes - don't you ever use the space above the crownboard to let the bees clean up extracted frames (that you want to store) or pieces of brace comb with honey in etc?

If you dont cover them (we don't), surely the extra ventilation isn't bad? I would have thought it was an advantage when they are trying to evaporate nectar?

 

[oliver90owner]

I would have thought it was an advantage when they are trying to evaporate nectar?

Then why do the bees propoplise over, given the opportunity? Just try it! The bees will tell you that they do not want large areas of open space at the top of their home. Not winter, spring, summer or autumn. Never.

Unfortunately they are forced to put up with it, when large holes are left by unthoughtful beekeepers. If the beekeeper leaves small holes they can deal with it easily - they propolise it!

Most likely the bees will, instead, propolise the roof vents, thus thwarting the beekeeper's vain attempt at forcing unwanted ventilation on them, while retaining the ability to cause mayhem with wild comb in the roof space, if that same unthoughtful beekeeper does not address the need for more space in the hive.

 

[BBG]

I do have bottom ventilation via a varroa floor.
Andy

It's not a varroa floor it's Open Mesh Floor, which MAFF asked beekeepers to trial in early 90s. Beeks felt it was excellent for their stock (all livestock needs good ventilation, ref tall open shed for cattle, sheep, etc)

Where things twisted was varroa arrived a year or two later and it was thought a good idea to have a varroa count.

Best way to do the count?

Put a tray under the OMF and it was called a varroa tray but some existing beeks and new arrivals left the floor in continuously, which reduced ventilation and all the troubles that causes.

Varroa tray only goes in for 3/4 days of monitoring then left out, particularly in winter. Put in in Spring for build up over a week or two or help heat with new arrivals but only a short time.

Should be instructions at top of new hive manuals/?

Not having a go, just see where misunderstanding has come from.

 

[MandF]

I would have thought it was an advantage when they are trying to evaporate nectar?

Then why do the bees propoplise over, given the opportunity?

Could it be their natural instinct is to first secure the hive against intruders?

We were taught at our local association that the bees see anything above the crown board as 'outside'.. due to the pheramone levels. They leave the holes open on all the hives there, and only temporarily cover them up when using apiguard, or if using porter escapes to clear a super of course.

So, the bees' natural instinct is to close these 2 additional entrances (so they think) to their hive, however it does offer some advantages in terms of ventilation/evaporation? I dont know, just a thought.

Also, if they are meant to be a solid board, then why arent they supplied with 2 blocks (like closed porter escapes), so it is solid until you want to use it as a clearing board and then swap in the porter escapes? Maybe there is a gap in the market there ;-)

 

[oliver90owner]

I will try to be very considerate of your obvious 'newbie status' on the forum and possibly your preconceived ideas re bees' requirements of this nature (top ventilation).

Could it be their natural instinct is to first secure the hive against intruders?

No it could not possibly be that. That is clearly demonstated by their behaviour with similar 'openings', provided by beekeepers, in other parts of the hive ie they do not normally completely propolise an OMF, but they most certainly propolise a similar mesh if supplied as an open mesh ceiling!! They would propolise it to their requirements and that may mean that virtually all the area would be covered - all extra, unecessary work for them, would you agree?

or if using porter escapes to clear a super of course.

??? I am so very sorry for my complete non-understanding of your statement, but you would have to explain to me how a clearer board affects holes in the crownboard, as I am unable to comprehend any connection between the two items apart from the crownboards, supplied by some of the major suppliers (nearly all suppliers, in fact), being of a construction such that they may be used as a clearer board (ie an alternative use instead of as a crownboard) for those few days when 'clearing' bees from supers (above) is required.

It is my understanding, am I believe I am correct, that clearer boards always go below a super and crownboards are universally found at the top of the hive closing the uppermost box (whether brood or super); 'crown' being the clue here, meaning like the analogy that the crown is on the top of the head?

We were taught at our local association that the bees see anything above the crown board as 'outside'

Surely this cannot be true all the time as it has been often reported (on this very forum) where swarmed bees have either started building wax comb directly from the roof particularly in an empty super above a crownboard. Or quite often beekeepers report comb being built in the space above the crownboard because the holes were left open (they could not possibly have done this if the crown board was the limit to their hive space) and the bees are using the space for honey storage.

So yes, the crownboard should be the upper limit of the hive and only then, covered and protected from the elements, by the roof - which should have a modicum of ventilation to pevent damp conditions prevailing. Just like the loft space above our homes (those that live in houses as opposed to flats etc) which must be ventilated to the outside to protect the contents and fabric of the roof from deterioration due to dampness.

So, the bees' natural instinct is to close these 2 additional entrances

I don't get this either. You must forgive my lack of understanding. These are not entrances, surely? There is no access to the outside world unless the thoughtless beekeeper forgets to replace the roof cover? My understanding of a entrance is the part of a building, structure, place, or whatever, where entry may be gained to the building etc, most entrances also being used as an exit, but of course, not necessarily so (thinking 'one-way' systems here).

however it does offer some advantages in terms of ventilation/evaporation?

Apparently not so, to the bees. They seem to carefully ventilate their accommodation (naturally, a tree cavity?) without there needing to be any other chimneys for air changes. They have done this for many millions of years before man ever set foot (down from the trees) on the Earth even as the first hominid. So these extra holes are simply an unwanted interference to their well tried and tested model of an air conditioning arrangement; it is more than likely disrupting their work and making things more difficult for them.

Indeed in my earlier years, before I gained the experience, I, too, left holes open on the crownboard - and lo and behold, the bees promptly propolised the fine meshes which prevent insects, etc gaining entry to the roof through those roof vents. Bees really are amazing - they will try (and often succeed) to thwart all our best attempts at interference with their well tested and proven systems.

I do hope you find this enlightening and please post back if you have any explained experience which is contrary to the above. I am still learning more and more about these creatures and their simple, but complex, methods of achieving their ultimate single goal in life - that of passing their genes to the next generation.

Regards, RAB

PS I will apoligise now if my future posts are not quite so convivial and appear much more direct, factual, and to the point. That is my natural style, not this sort of response, as above.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Varroa tray only goes in for 3/4 days of monitoring then left out, particularly in winter. Put in in Spring for build up over a week or two or help heat with new arrivals but only a short time.

I would advise to leave the slide in for the full course of treatment if using thymol based product or formic,around one month,and you can then see how effective the treatment you are using is.
PS.......the more expensive floor is called the full varroa floor by the usual suspects.

 

[Pete Nicholson]

I only use the porters for their intended purpose - have a piece of tile covering the holes which they propolise very rapidly. Have OMF open all the time - even in winter but close down entrance to around one inch for the cold.
Just my 2 pennyworth - but had a really strong colony in the spring this yesr.
P.

 

[BBG]

Varroa tray only goes in for 3/4 days of monitoring then left out, particularly in winter. Put in in Spring for build up over a week or two or help heat with new arrivals but only a short time.

I would advise to leave the slide in for the full course of treatment if using thymol based product or formic,around one month,and you can then see how effective the treatment you are using is.
PS.......the more expensive floor is called the full varroa floor by the usual suspects.

Thanks for the heads up and good to learn all the time. Will do.
Do you use formic?

 

[richardbees]

I've always had a glazed cover board (since before OMF) and used to put a bit of perforated zinc over the feed hole so I could lift off the roof and let visitors see the bees safely. They (the bees, not the visitors!) always propolised over the zinc, regardless of time of year, so I now use a bit of slate.

 

[MandF]

I will try to be very considerate of your obvious 'newbie status' on the forum and possibly your preconceived ideas re bees' requirements of this nature (top ventilation).

Thank you ever so much oh kind master. Could you give me a virtual pat on the head if I bow to you too?

No it could not possibly be that. all extra, unecessary work for them, would you agree?

I dont know, never having had either an open mesh ceiling, nor had a mesh over the holes in my CROWN BOARD

or if using porter escapes to clear a super of course.

??? I am so very sorry for my complete non-understanding of your statement, but you would have to explain to me how a clearer board affects holes in the crownboard, as I am unable to comprehend any connection between the two items apart from the crownboards, supplied by some of the major suppliers (nearly all suppliers, in fact), being of a construction such that they may be used as a clearer board (ie an alternative use instead of as a crownboard) for those few days when 'clearing' bees from supers (above) is required.

See, very good, you answered your own question. Not quite "complete non-understanding" was it? For the sake of clarity for other non expert beekeepers (unlike yourself obviously), my crown boards have holes for which to insert porter escapes, so you can then use it as a clearing board. When I do that, it is still effectively a crown board as it is crowning the hive (as the bees see it), the only thing on top of the super(s) to be cleared above is the roof.

We were taught at our local association that the bees see anything above the crown board as 'outside'

Surely this cannot be true all the time as it has been often reported (on this very forum) where swarmed bees have either started building wax comb directly from the roof particularly in an empty super above a crownboard. Or quite often beekeepers report comb being built in the space above the crownboard because the holes were left open (they could not possibly have done this if the crown board was the limit to their hive space) and the bees are using the space for honey storage.

As I said, that is what I was taught at my association, and you will find the person who taught us that is in charge of education for the BBKA. In fact, if you got this month's BBKA news he actually mentions the space above the crown board being seen as OUTSIDE the hive, due to pheramones. But you obviously know better?

So, the bees' natural instinct is to close these 2 additional entrances

I don't get this either. You must forgive my lack of understanding. These are not entrances, surely? There is no access to the outside world unless the thoughtless beekeeper forgets to replace the roof cover? My understanding of a entrance is the part of a building, structure, place, or whatever, where entry may be gained to the building etc, most entrances also being used as an exit, but of course, not necessarily so (thinking 'one-way' systems here).

You arent very clever are you, I will say it again, the bees see the crownboard as the end of their hive. My crown board has 2 holes, which I do not cover. I was just speculating (which I assumed was ok on this forum, obviously not) as to the reason the bees want to close these holes off, given the chance, which is what others here are saying. The speculation being that the bees already have their chosen entrance, and therefore prefer to close of any other entrances to the hive space (you know, pheramones) if possible in order to make it easier to defend. Are you suggesting that bees are clever enough to see these 2 "holes" into their hive, but have a look on the other side and determine that it has no access to the outside world so these holes are benign as they dont constitute proper "entrances"?

So these extra holes are simply an unwanted interference to their well tried and tested model of an air conditioning arrangement; it is more than likely disrupting their work and making things more difficult for them.

As is all beekeeping, so whats your point? If you want it as natural as possible and not interfere with their "tried and trusted" model, can I assume you use skeps and destroy all the bees when harvesting honey? Or your bees are kept in trees?

If it was common practice to close off crown board holes, I am wondering why Th**nes do not supply blanking plates with them, or sell blanking plates for them? Rhetorical question - that means I dont need you to answer that.

I do hope you find this enlightening Regards, RAB

I do, but only as an indication of your character.

PS I will apoligise now if my future posts are not quite so convivial and appear much more direct, factual, and to the point. That is my natural style, not this sort of response, as above.

Its ok, I wont post any more. It was my understanding that beekeeping was an art, and there were many things we still did not understand about honeybees and their behaviour. I also thought the maxim about asking 5 beekeepers for their opinion on something and get 20 different answers held true, hence I thought it would be fine to SPECULATE on here. I did not realise you were the beekeeping guru - you ought to write a book instead of insulting and patronising people on here. But I guess then you wouldnt feel so big?
Ta-ra

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

II did not realise you were the beekeeping guru - you ought to write a book instead of insulting and patronising people on here. But I guess then you wouldnt feel so big?
Ta-ra

MandF - if you ask a question and don't like the answer (or its tone) than just get on with it. RAB didn't deliberately intend to wind you up, and even if the style can be patronising he was trying to be helpful by sharing knowledge and opinion. People have different writing styles, but as far as I can see there is only one person being insulting here.

 

[MandF]

MandF - if you ask a question and don't like the answer (or its tone) than just get on with it. RAB didn't deliberately intend to wind you up, and even if the style can be patronising he was trying to be helpful by sharing knowledge and opinion. People have different writing styles, but as far as I can see there is only one person being insulting here.

It was the tone. It was not a straight question, just a suggestion for discussion.

And if you think his reply was not insulting.. well... Unless you think I should accept someone suggesting I don't know what 'entrance' or 'crown' means, for example?

I am not stupid, I am not a child, and I think my suggestion/question was reasonable.. even if it is wrong (and presumably there is evidence to prove this).

If RAB can dish out patronising replies, I am sure he can receive them, no?

 

[MandF]

By the way, I should add that I am a newb on this forum, but have been keeping bees for a few years, just in case people think it is somehow ok to patronise someone who doesnt keep bees.

 

[garethbryson]

I do, but only as an indication of your character.

Its ok, I wont post any more. It was my understanding that beekeeping was an art, and there were many things we still did not understand about honeybees and their behaviour. I also thought the maxim about asking 5 beekeepers for their opinion on something and get 20 different answers held true, hence I thought it would be fine to SPECULATE on here. I did not realise you were the beekeeping guru - you ought to write a book instead of insulting and patronising people on here. But I guess then you wouldnt feel so big?
Ta-ra

the world hates a smartass, i have no time for people who get off on making other people look stupid. Especially someone who is a novice (like myself)with a passion for learning about something they have a keen interest in.

and if i may quote Mr Benjamin Disraeli

Rab seems to me to be "a sophistical rhetorician, inebriated with the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination that can at all times command an interminable and inconsistent series of arguments to malign an opponent and to glorify himself".

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

And if you think his reply was not insulting.. well... Unless you think I should accept someone suggesting I don't know what 'entrance' or 'crown' means, for example?

Don't want to get into a long discussion about this and RAB is more than capable of defending himself if he wanted to, but how are is anyone meant to know how experienced you are? Your profile shows no hives, and I'm guessing RAB has no prior knowledge of you.

New beekepers dont always know the difference between crown and clearer boards- see earlier in the thread

 

[MandF]

Don't want to get into a long discussion about this and RAB is more than capable of defending himself if he wanted to, but how are is anyone meant to know how experienced you are? Your profile shows no hives, and I'm guessing RAB has no prior knowledge of you.

New beekepers dont always know the difference between crown and clearer boards- see earlier in the thread

Even LESS of a reason to be patronising.. and according to him he was being "convivial"?!

But even if I had only just seen a beehive, do you honestly think that I did not know what "entrance" meant? Come on?!

A forum is a place to discuss and debate, if does not work if someone is shouting, insulting, patronising and setting themselves up to be unquestionable. That stifles debate, and therefore, I think there is no place for it in a 'forum'. Just my opinion like.

 

[MandF]

:
the world hates a smartass, i have no time for people who get off on making other people look stupid. Especially someone who is a novice (like myself)with a passion for learning about something they have a keen interest in.

I agree mate. If we didnt have a passion to learn we wouldnt ask questions - whether other people think they are stupid or not.

As I said, beekeeping is an art, and the point of this forum (I thought) was to pass on and share knowledge and experience, with like-minded adults.

If this guy isn't trying to patronise then he needs to work on his communication skills. I just read another post of his where basically he said he has a developed vocabulary, unlike most people (!) and cant help it if people dont understand his proper meaning.

Funny, I thought the benefit of having a developed vocabulary was to make yourself understood to more people, by using words with their proper meaning in their proper context?

Anyhoo, I have work to do

 

[MandF]

I thought I would post this here too - by chance I found him commenting about some argument he won with a noob on another thread, and so quoted the bbka article I mention above, which also had some pertinent quotes regarding crown boards, and their use as -shock, horror- clearing boards!

-------

Also, did you check out the article on p.10 of this month's BBKA news? I quote "prepare the clearer board, which is a crown board fitted with either porter bee escapes in the oval holes, or diamond escapes.."

and

"The clearer board is placed underneath the super(s) you wish to clear and on top of the hive in place of the standard crown board."

and, wrt your assertion that the roof and not the crown board are viewed as part of the hive by the bees..

"These substances (pheramones) are contained in a volume that is bounded by the floor, the brood and the super boxes and the crown board. From the point of view of the bee, this volume is inside and subject to the mechanisms that regulate the colony. Anything not inside this volume is outside and is a potential source of forage etc. Note that anything that we regard as being part of the hive but is above the crown board is regarded as being outside by the bees."

 

[Hivemaker.]

Note that anything that we regard as being part of the hive but is above the crown board is regarded as being outside by the bees."

I have had bees with comb and brood in "outside" the hive on several occasions. Sometimes just honey stores and no brood.