Planning ahead...winter feed, or not?

[Do224]

Having spoken to a few different people about how to get my hives safely through their first winter...I’m thoroughly confused by the conflicting advice, as usual

One thing that seems pretty much agreed upon is that the hives each need about 40lb of stores going in to winter.

Beyond that, the options as I’ve had them explained to me are;

1. Don’t worry about it, a national brood box will have 40lb of honey in it by late autumn so just leave them with that.

2. You’ll need to leave the bees with a full super of honey for the winter. Put it under the brood box.

3. Just take any supers off them for yourself and whack some fondant on the crownboard and they’ll be grand.

4. You’ll have to put the fondant on the top bars of the frames to make sure the bees find it. If you just put it on the crownboard they may not use it and starve to death.

Further complicated in my situation as half my colonies are in nucs and I’ve no idea how much they’ll be able to build up between now and winter

 

[Curly green finger's]

Having spoken to a few different people about how to get my hives safely through their first winter...I’m thoroughly confused by the conflicting advice, as usual

One thing that seems pretty much agreed upon is that the hives each need about 40lb of stores going in to winter.

Beyond that, the options as I’ve had them explained to me are;

1. Don’t worry about it, a national brood box will have 40lb of honey in it by late autumn so just leave them with that.

2. You’ll need to leave the bees with a full super of honey for the winter. Put it under the brood box.

3. Just take any supers off them for yourself and whack some fondant on the crownboard and they’ll be grand.

4. You’ll have to put the fondant on the top bars of the frames to make sure the bees find it. If you just put it on the crownboard they may not use it and starve to death.

Further complicated in my situation as half my colonies are in nucs and I’ve no idea how much they’ll be able to build up between now and winter

I will start feeding when the ivy flowers aldepending, if there is a flow like last year some colonys had enough and got fed fondant in Feb time.
I did give some colonys fondant just after Christmas but this was because they were light.
I also fed very light colonys in the autumn with fondant in an eke above a QX so as to stop it dripping down on them and having it directly above them.
As you can see there are different sinarios to each beekeeper and to each colonys /location.
Some colonys don't use 40lbs of stores, I had colonys using half that last winter.
The 40 lb is a guide much the same as syrup strength.

In the early autumn you can nadir partly filled supers, which will get added to ivy and whatever you feed.
Which can be removed.

1. Not necessarily that's down to the flow gods and weather and strength of colony.

2. Nadiring a full super of honey is going to create possible robbing and a full super of honey would be better in a bucket for your consumption.

3. Don't like the idea of whacking!
Personally I do what I said above qx eke fondant, crownboard and minimum 50mm King's pan or whatever insulation you like as long as it works.
Some on here use a hole cut out of insulation above a Crownboard over the feeder hole.. Works for them.
4 not necessarily true but there is that risk if the colony have moved to one side of the box.
Hence me doing this.
Fondant is rolled out to cover the whole area of the qxs which is put on top of the hive parchment paper is placed on rop then insulation crownboard then more insulation and deap roof preferably if you have them.

As to nucs in poly hives they will get fed syrup and will weigh around 12.5 kgs as a baseline weight for a 6 frame nuc.

Do you have means to weigh ie luggage scales?

Hopefully this helps at this stupid hour!

 

[Ian123]

Hi in answer to your questions
1. A single box is adequate for winter feed, but rather depends on the size of the colony. Some of mine currently on 3 broods will winter in a single. You need to judge monitor and adjust for each colony. Realistically all that means is heft and decide if they require any syrup.


2. no you don’t need to a add a super underneath. That’s just a current fad atm, and was normally only used to clear some half filled supers.

3. fondant does work but you get far more bang for your buck feeding syrup. Fed slowly over autumn you’ll encourage smaller colonies to expand and queen continuing to lay. Particularly if you have important late sources of pollen.

4. Fondant works in contact with bees if you can align holes in crown board to the cluster no need for on the top bars. Get fondant on before they use all the stores in the hive, it’s best use is belt and braces and helping those running low to eke out stores they have.

5. Nucs winter just fine so don’t panic about putting them into winter. Secondly any nuc made now should be more than capable of filling a single box, with a little feed and sticking an empty frame into the centre of the brood nest, forcing the queen to lay it up.

 

[user 20297]

Having spoken to a few different people about how to get my hives safely through their first winter...I’m thoroughly confused by the conflicting advice, as usual

Don’t worry about it, a national brood box will have 40lb of honey in it by late autumn so just leave them with that.

I was in the same position as you last winter and tried to take all the advice you mention into consideration and found it difficult with lots of conflicting suggestions.

This season I will be trying to overwinter in one box and be feeding with heavy syrup after taking off any honey I can. Then I'll be giving them access to fondant throughout winter and be checking them in late winter at an earlier date than this year.

Having one starved colony really annoyed and upset me, so I've done a 180 on feeding and until I become more experienced at hefting and all round judgement of winter welfare I'm going belt and braces.

 

[SumpNut]

Hi in answer to your questions
1. A single box is adequate for winter feed, but rather depends on the size of the colony. Some of mine currently on 3 broods will winter in a single. You need to judge monitor and adjust for each colony. Realistically all that means is heft and decide if they require any syrup.
....

Hi all,

Apologies for interjecting with my own question. Out of curiosity, how do you go about reducing a multiple brood box colony to just the one?

Thanks
Daniel

 

[Fiona in South View]

Nadiring a super may be a ‘fad’ at the moment, but I do it. Reasons for my situation and bees is that I want some honey, but am happy to leave them some then feed syrup or fondant if necessary. On all my colonies, the first super is always theirs, I only get the extra supers. Putting it below the brood means that the brood/cluster is on top in the warmer situation as it would be naturally and I can treat the cluster over winter. I only ever have 3-6 colonies and live in the country. I have also over wintered poly nucs and with them I feel that I need to check regularly as there isn’t enough room for lots of stores. I start with the syrup feeder on top, but remove that to be able to place fondant straight onto the brood. You can place the fondant into the feeder and remove the barriers, but I prefer placing it directly on the cluster just to make sure. Read through what everyone says and try what you think will suit your bees and your situation. I do a lot of things that are not ‘conventional’ wisdom and just because people have been doing it for years doesn’t mean you can’t do something differently or better for your situation. I had a lot of ill health one year and did very little with my bees beyond the necessary, disease and space. The bees did really well that year!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Putting it below the brood means that the brood/cluster is on top in the warmer situation as it would be naturally

Errm - naturally the brood would be below the stores, who would put the winter stores right next to the entrance? when the colony is clustered they will not be aware of any robbing.
by nadiring a whole full shallow you are leaving the colony open to robbing or taking workers away from the brood area to perform guard duties.
The bees will attempt to move all this back above the cluster so you are again giving the colony more work and extra stress when they should be getting ready for winter.

 

[oliver90owner]

Whatever size your colonies might be now, they will only go into winter with about ten thousand bees or so

The single most important thing is to take healthy bees into winter - that means varroa-free just before the winter bees are produced. Winter feeding is a matter of choice. Generally, they won’t starve with a full deep box of stores until spring-time expansion begins.

Stores is always better above the brood nest. Shallows, nadired early, will be moved up by the bees before clustering if possible. Since changing to 14 x 12 I have never had a colony short of stores in spring - over-wintering on one box. Often frames of stores used to be removed in spring to get the production colonies ready for the OSR.

I’ve not over-wintered nucs for several years now. They were all 6 frame 14 x 12 nucs so a box full with bees and stores was adequate - especially in poly.

Proper insulation is important and leaving them ‘undisturbed’ for the duration (apart from gently hefting) by the beekeeper would be good. All my hives were well ventilated from below the brood box and well sealed at the top. Can’t have too much bottom ventilation with 14 x 12 frames, but as long as there is enough they should remain dry.

Edited to add that very large colonies with medium-heavy varroa loads before autumn contraction, can often collapse due to so many varroa diving into the fewer cells as the lay-rate is diminished. Multiple varroa in a capped cell will very much weaken the bee before it has metamorphosed in the cocoon, leading to virtually no healthy emergent bees - just when needed for the winter.

 

[Ian123]

Nadiring a super may be a ‘fad’ at the moment, but I do it. Reasons for my situation and bees is that I want some honey, but am happy to leave them some then feed syrup or fondant if necessary. On all my colonies, the first super is always theirs, I only get the extra supers. Putting it below the brood means that the brood/cluster is on top in the warmer situation as it would be naturally and I can treat the cluster over winter.

As jenks says putting honey below the brood is not the normal set up or natural. Hence why the bees move it! In cold autumns you are also inviting wasp issues as the bees will tightly cluster around the brood leaving the front door unguarded.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I was in the same position as you last winter and tried to take all the advice you mention into consideration and found it difficult with lots of conflicting suggestions.

This season I will be trying to overwinter in one box and be feeding with heavy syrup after taking off any honey I can. Then I'll be giving them access to fondant throughout winter and be checking them in late winter at an earlier date than this year.

Having one starved colony really annoyed and upset me, so I've done a 180 on feeding and until I become more experienced at hefting and all round judgement of winter welfare I'm going belt and braces.

I had one starve this year march April time and same as you I felt quite upset and kicked myself because if I would of fed them just a few days before they would still be alive.
It was my first colony ever to die maybe not my last but a learning curve none the less.
We had snow up here in March/April time different to last year when we were extracting on the 22 of May and the first of June.

 

[Do224]

Thanks all for the great explanations of the various options. My bees are in standard national deeps.

One thing I wasn’t really aware of (which seems very naive of me having read much of the above) is the need to feed syrup in the autumn.

So if I’m getting this right, you wait for the winter bees to emerge and then feed 2:1 syrup until the brood box is rammed with stores?

When would be the usual time to start giving them syrup and how much?

 

[Monbees]

Hi all,

Apologies for interjecting with my own question. Out of curiosity, how do you go about reducing a multiple brood box colony to just the one?

Thanks
Daniel

I was hoping for a reply to this question. Wondering how to reduce a double brood colony down to just one for winter? And when to do it. Do you combine all the stores into one box - what if there are more stores than can be accomodated in one box? And what about the advice to keep one super of stores for the bees? Presumably leave this on top of the brood box?

 

[gmonag]

I cannot answer your question directly because I do not use conventional hives, with deep brood boxes, QEs and shallow supers, so I have no experience.
However if you use one size of box throughout the hive, it is a piece of cake. The brood nest shrinks back down and frames are shifted into the lower (usually 2) boxes to make up whatever configuration you want, with enough stores to last the winter. Close the hive, go on a world cruise until spring.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I was hoping for a reply to this question. Wondering how to reduce a double brood colony down to just one for winter? And when to do it. Do you combine all the stores into one box - what if there are more stores than can be accomodated in one box? And what about the advice to keep one super of stores for the bees? Presumably leave this on top of the brood box?

I will dummy down some of my doubles and leave them as they are if they are very strong going into autumn/winter.
Any extra frames of stores will get donated to other colonys or stored either in brood boxes or put in the freezer if I have space.

 

[drex]

Thanks all for the great explanations of the various options. My bees are in standard national deeps.

One thing I wasn’t really aware of (which seems very naive of me having read much of the above) is the need to feed syrup in the autumn.

So if I’m getting this right, you wait for the winter bees to emerge and then feed 2:1 syrup until the brood box is rammed with stores?

When would be the usual time to start giving them syrup and how much?

I have said this many times on the forum. Feeding is a balancing act. Too little and they starve, too much and queen has no room to lay. I rarely feed going into winter. I leave enough in the brood box when I take my last crop ( about end of August) and the bees top it up with ivy. If they really take off in the spring I occasionally have to give a bit of fondant.
This strategy has been gained with experience and your stategy is probably best at your stage. For me the most important thing is to get on top of varroa prior to laying of the winter bees.

 

[Monbees]

I will dummy down some of my doubles and leave them as they are if they are very strong going into autumn/winter.
Any extra frames of stores will get donated to other colonys or stored either in brood boxes or put in the freezer if I have space.

I am a bit concerned about empty space the bees will have to keep warm if hive is left as double brood once stores from the top one get used up through the winter.

 

[Ian123]

First off box

I was hoping for a reply to this question. Wondering how to reduce a double brood colony down to just one for winter? And when to do it. Do you combine all the stores into one box - what if there are more stores than can be accomodated in one box? And what about the advice to keep one super of stores for the bees? Presumably leave this on top of the brood box?

First off it’s a benefit if the bees fit the box, you don’t want a colony rattling around in empty space, and I rarely use mouse guards. As to how you do it just remove the excess box/frames. If bees are occupying them there not excess and probably needed. I’ve normally got Nucs or expanding colony’s that can use the frames. Your not trying to do this next month my winter preps and top up feeds continue into October and am happy to top up feed in Nov if/when weather allows.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I am a bit concerned about empty space the bees will have to keep warm if hive is left as double brood once stores from the top one get used up through the winter.

I know of other forum members who winter 9 over 9 and dummied down with insulationed dummy boards they won't be rattling about.

 

[Swarm]

I am a bit concerned about empty space the bees will have to keep warm if hive is left as double brood once stores from the top one get used up through the winter.

Hello Monbees,
Make some packers to dummy your brood boxes then think of them like the old gasometers. Depends on your bees but mine rarely require more than eighteen frames so demarrees are brought back down to doubles of nine over nine and the removed extra combs get used up.
We collapsed a demarree last year and left them with twenty two frames, ran out of packers. They had no feed, weighed a ton and when I removed the top box back in spring it still weighed a ton
Six frames still fully capped.

 

[drex]

I am a bit concerned about empty space the bees will have to keep warm if hive is left as double brood once stores from the top one get used up through the winter.

I will take most of my colonies through winter on doubles. They are in wood but have top insulation. They start off towards the bottom and work their way up as winter goes by. They do not eat stores from top down. Not lost a colony over winter for some time ( one due to queen failure)