Perone Hive?

[Finman]

It is known as ...."do nothing beekeeping".

OK. That theory I have know 53 years.

 

[user 6228]

The bees' ability to hold the winter cluster temperature is independent of whether there is space above, below or around the cluster. The cluster is where the warmth is, and it doesn't matter how much space is above the cluster.

One might think that since heat rises, there must be a zone of warm air above the cluster, but there isn't really. In winter, the temperature of the area more than 2 inches away from the cluster (including the area above the cluster) is the same as the outside temperature.

all of this is wrong unless you have really big top vents... If you want to go into the details of heat flow, we can...

 

[Finman]

.
The infra red picture shows, how heat rises up in the hive.

Look from google

 

[Millet]

You really deliver wrong information. You have not real winters in Holland. At least you have cold weathers and wind there.
But from where you have got those ideas?
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Get this kind of apparatus, and measure how heat rises up. You may measure the temp from inner cover under insulation.

I can measure, how the heat leaks through the polyhive wall compared to empty poly hive.

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Sorry i respect you ten fold, but the bit i have highlighted sells you down to a tee.

 

[Finman]

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Never mind. IT does not affect on my honey yields. Thsks anyway.

 

[pargyle]

Well, if you leave honey bees to their own devices, they'll likely die. This is because your local region is now infected with pests and diseases that didn't used to occur there, and because the bees that you have are not the original type of bee that occurred in your area.


The theoretical problems with the Perone hive include:
* You can't inspect the brood nest for brood diseases as good or as often as might be good for you. What you could do, perhaps, is to make a sizeable "door" in two sides of the hive so that you can open the door and cut out a piece of comb for inspection. This would go slightly against the Perone rules, but not entirely, since you're not pulling the combs apart.
* Your hives will swarm, guaranteed. The more healthy the hive, the more they swarm. And you can't really do artificial swarming in a Perone hive.
* You can do mite treatment, but you can't measure its success rate. This is not a big problem -- lots of people don't measure mite infestation, but simply treat for it at regular intervals.
* With modular hives, you can use frames from one colony to "help" another colony, if one is struggling, but you can't do that with Perone. You just have to take it on faith (and watch the bees' behaviour at the hive entrance) that the bees will be all right.

The theory is that the bees are better capable of taking care of themselves if they are not disturbed (i.e. if the micro climate inside the box is not disturbed). There will always be diseases and

The bees' ability to hold the winter cluster temperature is independent of whether there is space above, below or around the cluster. The cluster is where the warmth is, and it doesn't matter how much space is above the cluster.

One might think that since heat rises, there must be a zone of warm air above the cluster, but there isn't really. In winter, the temperature of the area more than 2 inches away from the cluster (including the area above the cluster) is the same as the outside temperature.

Sorry Sam, But most of this is just not right ...

Lots of people keep bees without treating them and they don't die.

Colonies of bees will swarm regardless of health and size .. if they want to - Perone hives are no more likely to swarm than any other.

There is a zone of warmer air at the top of hives that are well insulated and have solid crownboards (ie: without holes or with blocked holes) in place. I've measured internal hive temperatures and its only the bottom few inches next to the mesh floor that are anywhere near the external air temperature.
You would be amazed at how warm the bees can keep the hive given the opportunity.

Having said that .. I looked at the Perone Hive (as I did the Warre and the various TBH's that are about) and decided that the difficulty of working with a hive that could not, easily, be inspected or which had fixed top bars was not something I wanted to contend with and they were all discounted as, in my view, they were not practical for the type of beekeeping I wanted to engage in.

So, whilst some of your reasoning is a little off, I would agree that the Perone is very much a niche hive .. and certainly not a hive for a new beekeeper.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Perone is very much a niche hive .. and certainly not a hive for a new beekeeper.

Or any other kind of beekeeper.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Thank you for that but colonies of bees are getting wiped out all over the world by Varroa, ..

Take a look at Ron Hoskins site http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/about-us/

 

[pargyle]

Or any other kind of beekeeper.

Yeh ... as usual .. you're right !

 

[Finman]

Take a look at Ron Hoskins site http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/about-us/

Where are those Ron's grooming bees. I want to buy some that I so not need to treat mites any more.

I can see that do nothing beekeeping has conquered this forum. What you need only is "do nothing inspectors". Your hives will be burned if you nurse them.

 

[pargyle]

Where are those Ron's grooming bees. I want to buy some that I so not need to treat mites any more.

I can see that do nothing beekeeping has conquered this forum. What you need only is "do nothing inspectors". Your hives will be burned if you nurse them.

I just had a peep at this one post as I thought, with all your vast experience, you may have something worthwhile to contriubute to this thread but I was disappointed. All it did was confirm to me that this forum is much better without your tripe ... there are no beekeepers on here (myself included) that meet the description you keep putting forward of 'do nothing' beekeepers.

We all care for our bees in the way we see fit ..

For the amount of time you spend posting on here, at all hours of the day and night, I wonder that you have time for beekeeping ... So, I think you must be the only 'do nothing' beekeeper on her.

Don't bother replying .. you're still on my ignore list and I don't think I'll be dipping back into your posts again in a hurry.

 

[ugcheleuce]

Get this kind of apparatus, and measure how heat rises up.

I'm curious: Does that device measure the temperature of the hive box or the temperature of the air around the bees inside the box? I assume this device can't read temperatures on the other side of a wall (e.g. a wooden or poly wall), is that right? Well, if you were to point this device into any direction, can you ask it what is the temperature at 10 cm, 15 cm and 20 cm distance away from the device?

 

[ugcheleuce]

Sorry Sam, But most of this is just not right...

I appreciate corrections -- that is the value of forums.

Lots of people keep bees without treating them and they don't die.

I agree, of course, but my statement about bees dieing if left on their own should be read in the context of the statement that it is a response to.

If you put bees in a big box and them just leave them, their survival is not *more* certain simply because they are allowed to decide for themselves how they want to survive, without interference by humans. In fact, bee colonies are more likely to survive catastrophes (such as outbreaks of disease) if they are properly managed by humans.

Colonies of bees will swarm regardless of health and size .. if they want to - Perone hives are no more likely to swarm than any other.

That is true as well, but I think we're on the verge of splitting hairs, about words.

I'm not 100% convinced that ill or weak colonies are just as likely to swarm as healthy, strong colonies. I don't have a citation for you about that right now, though.

I have read, though, that colonies with an abundance of new bees and colonies with bigger stores at a time when there is also a flow, are more likely to get the swarm urge than others. In the Perone hive, in the "bees' section", bees build the equivalent of 1-2 National supers of honey stores before they start filling the "beekeeper's section" (i.e. the Perone supers).

Then there is the myth believed by some that if you only give bees enough room, then they will be less likely to swarm. This is the idea behind some "large" beehive designs (possibly the Perone as well).

Anyway, my statement was meant as a warning to a beginner beekeeper about the reality of having a Perone hive, i.e. that swarm management is not possible, and that swarming is going to be a bigger problem for him than it is for his neighbour beekeepers who use conventional hives.

There is a zone of warmer air at the top of hives that are well insulated and have solid crownboards (ie: without holes or with blocked holes) in place.

That is true -- my reply was not well-crafted, and I oversimplified and generalised quite a bit. Finman is also right when he refers to different hive temperature occurrences in different world climatic zones. It also depends on the bee race, e.g. bee races that raise brood throughout winter will need to keep their nest at a much higher temperature (and will benefit from a larger cool-off zone) than bees that don't.

If a hive is well insulated (or rather: if the material that the hive is made of, is good insulation), and has only a small entrance (particularly if the entrance is at the bottom), some warm air will get trapped in the upper portion of the hive. And obviously then the upper parts of the hive body itself will have higher temperature measurements if measured from outside the hive. However, that is just a side-effect of the hive design. Bees don't actually require it to be so.

I was replying to Millet's post, in which he seems to believe that bees actually require the warm air above the brood nest to survive winter.

 

[Finman]

I'm curious: Does that device measure the temperature of the hive box or the temperature of the air around the bees inside the box? I assume this device can't read temperatures on the other side of a wall (e.g. a wooden or poly wall), is that right? Well, if you were to point this device into any direction, can you ask it what is the temperature at 10 cm, 15 cm and 20 cm distance away from the device?

It is 25 euros, buy and try yourself. I have measured my hives.

Actually I measure my extracting process, what is temperature in honey. For example when I heat water in sauna pot and I make syrup. Softening honey in hot water bath and so on.

My colonies go over winter well without knowing what happens inside.
.

 

[ugcheleuce]

It is 25 euros, buy and try yourself. I have measured my hives.

Do you know the answers the questions that I asked?

 

[Finman]

.when you measure the temp, it is same even if you measure at the distance of 30 cm or 3 metres.
.

 

[Finman]

Do you know the answers the questions that I asked?

Do it yourself. I know answers, yes.

 

[ugcheleuce]

.when you measure the temp, it is same even if you measure at the distance of 30 cm or 3 metres..

Thanks, that answers my question.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Apologies, this is off topic, but ...

Take a look at Ron Hoskins site http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/about-us/

Where are those Ron's grooming bees. I want to buy some that I so not need to treat mites any more.

Maybe instead of self-protective sarcasm about something you clearly don't understand, it would have been worth taking the time to read some of the posts in a thread you started. You would then know about this important research carried out on Ron Hoskins bees. http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015186a.html You'd also have read the following paragraph, and more!

(http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/). The aim of this study was to assess the viral landscape in this apiary thereby determining whether the colonies remained disease-free owing to an absence of DWV. We show here that the Swindon apiary is dominated by an avirulent DWV type B master variant with the concomitant absence of the virulent DWV type A master variant. Taken together, these data suggest that a phenomenon known as superinfection exclusion (SIE) (Salaman, 1933; Labrie et al., 2010) is a plausible explanation for why this isolated UK honey bee population has survived, despite Varroa infestation and high DWV loads.​

 

[domino]

Apologies, this is off topic, but ...



Maybe instead of self-protective sarcasm about something you clearly don't understand, it would have been worth taking the time to read some of the posts in a thread you started. You would then know about this important research carried out on Ron Hoskins bees. http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015186a.html You'd also have read the following paragraph, and more!

(http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/). The aim of this study was to assess the viral landscape in this apiary thereby determining whether the colonies remained disease-free owing to an absence of DWV. We show here that the Swindon apiary is dominated by an avirulent DWV type B master variant with the concomitant absence of the virulent DWV type A master variant. Taken together, these data suggest that a phenomenon known as superinfection exclusion (SIE) (Salaman, 1933; Labrie et al., 2010) is a plausible explanation for why this isolated UK honey bee population has survived, despite Varroa infestation and high DWV loads.​

I'm not sure why people aren't more excited by this discovery, it seems pretty exciting to me. Although to be fair they haven't a practical application for it yet.