Pagden-ish?

[Sutty]

I have a couple more colonies preparing to swarm. I've knocked back all the queen cells to buy some time, though I appreciate it won't stop them making more.
One had only produced 2 or 3, so it might be a supercedure but I doubt it. I've given them more space & will see what they do.
The other had more QCs and is on reasonably full double brood (national). Assuming they make more QCs is there any reason not to simply split the boxes with Q on original site (and add 2nd brood box for space) and the other box to one side with a single QC? Will the half with the Q feel "swarmed" enough with a load of brood?

 

[Wilco]

This may not overcome the swarming instinct. If using it, I'd do a full Pagden- leave just the queen on the original site and remove all but the frame she's on. Then the flying bees will return and the rest should raise a new queen.

Personally I prefer nucing the queen.

 

[Boston Bees]

The other had more QCs and is on reasonably full double brood (national). Assuming they make more QCs is there any reason not to simply split the boxes with Q on original site (and add 2nd brood box for space) and the other box to one side with a single QC? Will the half with the Q feel "swarmed" enough with a load of brood?

There's also a very high risk of missing a swarm cell if you do this. And if you do miss one then you have the queen, the flying bees, the brood, and a swarm cell, all in one box ..... bye bye swarm .....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Nuc the queen
Far easier than fiddling around with two boxes

 

[Sutty]

There's also a very high risk of missing a swarm cell if you do this. And if you do miss one then you have the queen, the flying bees, the brood, and a swarm cell, all in one box ..... bye bye swarm .....

Yes, this is a concern, though I went over both boxes twice.
Part of my problem is a dwindling supply of spare kit!

 

[Sutty]

Nuc the queen
Far easier than fiddling around with two boxes

Sounds like this may be simplest! Always assuming I can find her she hasn't been the easiest!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Good luck. Tell us how you get on.

https://www.theapiarist.org/finding-the-queen/

 

[magor]

if Q is old enough (3rd year plus) but am pleased with her and want keep her gens i nuc her

but if shes younger ( 1st or 2nd y old mostly but sometimes ve kept and 3rd y old) and she real good (as yours as you describe in double brood box) i then do artificial swarm/pagden , i like follow as much i can natural bee insticts and for me pagden is more closed to what happens on natural swarm and also as seems its hot case in forum nowdays is a threatment free method at least for the original site with Q left behind with foragers ( but will inspect it also in next days for any Qcell they might create after she starts lay again) and the new box with the moved brood i spot best swarm cells(lot of jelly in and larva being lying down in a crescent) and keep as many i want cause ussually if colony was big i split in two/three nucs(5frames) after cells seal and also i may like splitt other colonies too and so ve ready Qcells to cut/put into them, gain time

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes like magor I like to keep my good queens so while I might nuc her for swarm control I re unite and squash her daughter
If I really want to increase (and I don't really really at all!) The old queen's colony is soon in a full sized hive

 

[Bluetractorman]

Yes like magor I like to keep my good queens so while I might nuc her for swarm control I re unite and squash her daughter
If I really want to increase (and I don't really really at all!) The old queen's colony is soon in a full sized hive

How long do you wait before re uniting?

 

[Erichalfbee]

As soon as there new queen is laying
Hivemaker used to have this trick. I've never tried it but he said it worked and took two weeks or so
Nuc your queen
Remove all the swarm cells in parent colony
Return in 7 and remove all the new emergency emergency cells in the bees in the main hive have made
From your nuc add a frame of open brood with young larva
Remove all the emergency cells after another 7 days
Unite. Swarming impulse has gone and the colony shouldn't now swarm

 

[Bluetractorman]

As soon as there new queen is laying
Hivemaker used to have this trick. I've never tried it but he said it worked and took two weeks or so
Nuc your queen
Remove all the swarm cells in parent colony
Return in 7 and remove all the new emergency emergency cells in the bees in the main hive have made
From your nuc add a frame of open brood with young larva
Remove all the emergency cells after another 7 days
Unite. Swarming impulse has gone and the colony shouldn't now swarm

Thanks. Putting Hivemaker's trick aside for a moment, were you to be intending to keep the old Q that had been nuc'd, would you still wait until the new Q in the parent colony was laying before doing a re-unite?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes

 

[Sutty]

Going to go through these tomorrow. Checking back through my records I've never seen the Q in the hive that only had 2-3 QCs. This is on single brood.
Any other suggestions for management?
If I can't find the Q I was wondering about leaving 1 QC on a frame brushed free of bees in original site (should be nearly capped) shaking frames free of bees to make up a nuc or hive on the original site (gets flying bees back), and moving the rest to the side (with Q somewhere!) with all QCs cut out.
Any thoughts? All being well I'll find her and just nuc her.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Going to go through these tomorrow. Checking back through my records I've never seen the Q in the hive that only had 2-3 QCs. This is on single brood.
Any other suggestions for management?
If I can't find the Q I was wondering about leaving 1 QC on a frame brushed free of bees in original site (should be nearly capped) shaking frames free of bees to make up a nuc or hive on the original site (gets flying bees back), and moving the rest to the side (with Q somewhere!) with all QCs cut out.
Any thoughts? All being well I'll find her and just nuc her.

Find the frame with a QC you want to keep and keep it safe in a nuc box.
Shake all the bees into a box of foundation, removing any queen cells.
Put on a QX and replace the frames you've just shaken plus the frame with your queen cell and put on top of the QX
Return the following day and take the top box away

 

[Sutty]

Find the frame with a QC you want to keep and keep it safe in a nuc box.
Shake all the bees into a box of foundation, removing any queen cells.
Put on a QX and replace the frames you've just shaken plus the frame with your queen cell and put on top of the QX
Return the following day and take the top box away

Thanks, that's an idea. I may struggle with available kit though, as I have another trying to swarm too. This may be a supercedure, if only 1 or 2 cells again I may leave them to it after reducing to 1 cell, and keep fingers crossed

 

[Erichalfbee]

Keep an eye on them. I had a colony with one supersedure cell but I nuc'd the queen because I bottled it. I check them today a week later and they made seven more queen cells. So that supersedure cell was a swarm cell.

 

[Sutty]

After 2-3 cells last time (all cut out) I suspect there will be loads!
It wouldn't be like bees to cooperate with me!

 

[Sutty]

I might end up smoking through a QE to find the errant Q

 

[Erichalfbee]

I might end up smoking through a QE to find the errant Q

Try this
https://www.theapiarist.org/swarm-control-and-elusive-queens/