oxalic acid and glycerine mix

[Hivemaker.]

but no-one has measured residual OA levels after such treatment. It's been done for trickling, but weeks/months later.

This is what the research paper using the oxalic strips says, plus a small chart.

Oxalic acid detection from bees, honey and beeswax.
Table III summarizes the measurements of oxalic acid in all samples taken before and after treatment. The natural oxalic acid content varied between 2.5 and 33.8 mg/kg. There was no increase in oxalic acid content of honey, wax, and bees after treatments, in all three trials (P > 0.05). All samples of bees and beeswax were negative before and after the OA treatment.

Table III
Oxalic acid residues in wax, bees and honey after treatment.

Mean ± standard deviations (SD) and number of samples . Honey: detection limit, 0.5 mg/kg–quantification limit, 1 mg/kg; wax detection limit, 1.5 mg/kg–quantification limit, 12 mg/kg; bees: detection limit, 0.8 mg/kg–quantification limit, 2 mg/kg. Uppercase letters (a–c) indicate statistical differences among treatments (t test, P < 0.05)

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13592-015-0405-7#Tab3
....plus..

Most vegetables contain much higher amounts of oxalic acid than honey so the total daily intake is negligible. Thus, from a nutritional point of view, oxalic acid should, like formic acid, also have a generally recognized as safe (GRAS) status. Moreover, no significant residues are expected after oxalic acid treatments as demonstrated in our research. Indeed, there is no risk of honey residues after all types of oxalic acid treatments (Radetzki 1994; Mutinelli et al. 1997; Del Nozal et al. 2000; Bernardini and Gardi 2001; Radetzki and Barmann 2001; Bogdanov et al. 2002).

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Shop Towels

Halfords sells Scott Shop Towels in a single roll for £3 for approximately 55 sheets.

Has anybody got January's American Bee Journal that contains Randy Oliver's article about this method? Would you scan the article and send it to me? - pm for email address.

CVB

 

[Eyeman]

I've the Jan 2017 ABJ.
PM me if you want a copy of the article.
Alec

 

[charlievictorbravo]

The ABJ article by Randy Oliver is interesting as it documents his initial experiments with Oxalic/Glycerine treatments. In summary,

1. he does not know how OA works; it could be a poison absorbed through the tarsal pads of the mites or it could just make the mites "let go",
2. The original Argentinian method of delivery using strips of cardboard soaked in the AO/Gly mixture appears the give better results but was considered to be too time-consuming to install and, more importantly, to remove and dispose of the "used" strips,
3. He prefers the use of "shop towels" because the bees chew them and drag the remains through the hive to dispose of, at the entrance, thus there are no residuals for the beek to remove for Resistance Management (reducing the potential for the mites to becoming resistant to the varroicide chemicals),
4. He says that in damp winter conditions, the OA may crystallize on the surface of the strips/towels and cause problems to the bees (such as wing damage) but he has not tested this himself,
5. All his testing was done in California in a temperature range of 40s to high 90s Fahrenheit.

If LASI wants to do something useful, it could test this method of OA delivery in a temperate climate, with and without brood, in summer and winter, testing for OA residues in honey and wax.

CVB

ps for OA read Api-Bioxal in the UK, although as it is not an approved method of using A-B, it is still likely to be illegal.

 

[Finman]

If LASI wants to do something useful, it could test this method of OA delivery in a temperate climate, with and without brood, in summer and winter, testing for OA residues in honey and wax.

.

All this have done during years 1998-2003. Results are carefully published on internet.
And results have been verified since then tens of times.

 

[mbc]

All this have done during years 1998-2003. Results are carefully published on internet.
And results have been verified since then tens of times.

Really? Oxalic mixed with glycerine delivered on cellulose?
No

 

[Finman]

Really? Oxalic mixed with glycerine delivered on cellulose?
No

IT is same oxalic acid. I have 2 degrees on chemistry.

 

[Finman]

Really? Oxalic mixed with glycerine delivered on cellulose?
No

IT is same oxalic acid. I have 2 degrees on chemistry.

Oxalic accumulation into wax. IT is done, Sir...
You basic skills, ...

LASI has private funding. IT cannot do much. Let Argentila finish their research. You cannot steal their project, Sir...

Glycerine is neutral stuff. IT kills nothing.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

..... I have 2 degrees on chemistry.

Is one Centigrade and the other one Fahrenheit?

CVB

 

[Finman]

Is one Centigrade and the other one Fahrenheit?

CVB

How did you know?

But I trust more on professionals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfJnIIe8cVM

.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

IT is same oxalic acid. I have 2 degrees on chemistry.

Oxalic accumulation into wax. IT is done, Sir...
You basic skills, ...

LASI has private funding. IT cannot do much. Let Argentila finish their research. You cannot steal their project, Sir...

Glycerine is neutral stuff. IT kills nothing.

Finnie, what is your understanding of how Oxalic Acid "works" on Varroa mites? Are they poisoned by ingestion or by absorption? Are they NOT poisoned but just let go of their host when the acid "burns" their tarsal pads?

The reason this is significant is that depending on how it works, we can decide whether there is a likelihood of the mites becoming resistant to the OA after long exposure.

CVB

 

[Finman]

Finnie, what is your understanding of how Oxalic Acid "works" on Varroa mites? Are they poisoned by ingestion or by absorption? Are they NOT poisoned but just let go of their host when the acid "burns" their tarsal pads?

The reason this is significant is that depending on how it works, we can decide whether there is a likelihood of the mites to becoming resistant to the OA after long exposure.

CVB

It is acidity what kills the mite. It has been noticed.

Bees does not lick the syrup in trickling. You may see small droplets on wings two days later.

Gasification makes fine acid dust into hive. Propably physical contact to crystals kill the mites.

Water solution acid works so, that there are at once contact of acid water, and after 10 minutes, lots of mites are laying dead under bee cluster.
And I think that when water dries up in the heat, acid crystals will be in the hive like in gasification.

In trickling sugar works like glue. Water stays in syrup, and bees try to clean the syrup away, and they spread it over the bee's body. You can see it yourself.

Glyserole does not dry up, and the acid works perhaps like syrup in trickling.

. And what is good in oxalic acid. It works and bees body can destroy it natural body respiration.

Wood has 50% cellulose. And wood has oxalic acid too. It does not make new mixtures.

Italians have tried oxalic water solution in cardboard (=cellulose) and it did not worked at all.

 

[MartinL]

but no-one has measured residual OA levels after such treatment. It's been done for trickling, but weeks/months later.

I think MAQS remains the only approved treatment for use with supers present though am happy to be corrected.

There is probably NO Oxalic to leave any residue!

Glycerine plus oxalic acid gives formic acid.

I still fail to see how the remaining Formic acid gets into any affective contact with the mites. Are we allowed to treat with Formic, (methanoic) acid, or is this a "back door" method, exploiting a dubious loophole???

 

[charlievictorbravo]

It is acidity what kills the mite. It has been noticed.
...
Gasification makes fine acid dust into hive. Propably physical contact to crystals kill the mites.

Water solution acid works so, that there are at once contact of acid water, and after 10 minutes, lots of mites are laying dead under bee cluster.
And I think that when water dries up in the heat, acid crystals will be in the hive like in gasification.

In trickling sugar works like glue. Water stays in syrup, and bees try to clean the syrup away, and they spread it over the bee's body. You can see it yourself.

Glyserole does not dry up, and the acid works perhaps like syrup in trickling.

...........

Italians have tried oxalic water solution in cardboard (=cellulose) and it did not worked at all.

If it is ingestion OR absorption, that KILLS the mite, is it likely to develop resistance to OA?

Randy Oliver gives the following warning in his ABJ piece "RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT: Any Varroa mite population has the potential to become resistant to insecticides. Resistance development is affected by both the frequency of application and the rate/dose of application. Continued reliance on a single class of miticide or single miticide with the same mode of action will select for resistant individuals which may dominate the mite population in subsequent generations… To delay resistance …. rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of action each time before returning to a previously-used one"

The method delivery of the OA/Gly mixture in Oliver's tests was varied. He did use the strips of cardboard (cellulose) as the Argentinians did and these worked well but he chose to recommend the use of "Shop Towels" because the bees did the removal and disposal of the medium and acid combination, dragging the chewed-up towel out of the entrance. If you have 1500 hives, as Oliver's son has, he calculated there would otherwise be 12,000 strips to make, install, remove and dispose of safely - no removal and disposal needed if "shop towels" are used.

No matter how effective this treatment may be, even if you used Api-Bioxal in the UK, this is not an approved method of delivery of the active ingredient and is therefore illegal.

CVB

 

[Finman]

Randy Oliver gives the following warning in his ABJ piece "RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT: Any Varroa mite population has the potential to become resistant to insecticides. Resistance development is affected by both the frequency of application and the rate/dose of application. CVB

Randy Oliver is not a researcher. He is hobby researcher. He writes what others have researched.

When I have collected to this forum latest varroa research links, Welsh village hyenas have emerged to chain at once to laugh. That about sciece of this forum.

 

[Finman]

There is probably NO Oxalic to leave any residue!



I still fail to see how the remaining Formic acid gets into any affective contact with the mites. ??

If you need formic acid in the hive, why don't you then use formic acid? It is regular mite killer.

Beekeepers spoke about fumigation 20 years ago, it was thought (Russians?) that when heating oxlic acid, it makes formic acid. Now that has been forgotten.

 

[Beefriendly]

Formic acid can be obtained by heating oxalic acid in glycerol and extraction by steam distillation. The glycerol acts as a catalyst in the reaction. As it requires heat it's not a likely outcome from just dissolving OA in glycerol.

And I think this is the correct sequence of events when vaping with the Oxalic acid dihydrate.
1) The water (dihydrate) leaves at 101.5° C leaving anhydrous oxalic acid crystals.
2) At 157° C the oxalic acid starts to sublime (goes directly from solid to gas)
3) At 189° C the oxalic acid which has not yet sublimed decomposes to formic acid and carbon monoxide.

So it is possible to over heat OA crystals to produce formic acid, but this is probably of no practical use given the small quantities used, the short vaporization times and the apparatus.
It can probably be pigeonholed into mildly interesting but essentially useless information.

 

[Millet]

If it is ingestion OR absorption, that KILLS the mite, is it likely to develop resistance to OA?

Randy Oliver gives the following warning in his ABJ piece "RESISTANCE MANAGEMENT: Any Varroa mite population has the potential to become resistant to insecticides. Resistance development is affected by both the frequency of application and the rate/dose of application. Continued reliance on a single class of miticide or single miticide with the same mode of action will select for resistant individuals which may dominate the mite population in subsequent generations… To delay resistance …. rotate the use of miticides to reduce selection pressure as compared to repeatedly using the same product, mode or action or chemical class. If multiple applications are required, use a different mode of action each time before returning to a previously-used one"

The method delivery of the OA/Gly mixture in Oliver's tests was varied. He did use the strips of cardboard (cellulose) as the Argentinians did and these worked well but he chose to recommend the use of "Shop Towels" because the bees did the removal and disposal of the medium and acid combination, dragging the chewed-up towel out of the entrance. If you have 1500 hives, as Oliver's son has, he calculated there would otherwise be 12,000 strips to make, install, remove and dispose of safely - no removal and disposal needed if "shop towels" are used.

No matter how effective this treatment may be, even if you used Api-Bioxal in the UK, this is not an approved method of delivery of the active ingredient and is therefore illegal.

CVB

I was under the impression that the sharp crystals formed by heating the acid injures the mites soft bodies, i am not sure where i read it or did i dream it.. lol

 

[mbc]

Randy Oliver is not a researcher. He is hobby researcher. He writes what others have researched.

{QUOTE }
Randy Oliver is one of the most respected bee researchers on the planet often bridging the gap between academics and beekeepers and sharing his findings in am upfront style in an effort to help and promote fellow beekeepers.
I'm not sure who or what you are finsky, I suspect a nasty bitter troll when I read posts like the above.

 

[Finman]

Randy Oliver is not a researcher. He is hobby researcher. He writes what others have researched.

{QUOTE }
Randy Oliver is one of the most respected bee researchers on the planet often bridging the gap between academics and beekeepers and sharing his findings in am upfront style in an effort to help and promote fellow beekeepers.
I'm not sure who or what you are finsky, I suspect a nasty bitter troll when I read posts like the above.

Halleluja.

Why don't you read original researches. I am able to do that, because I have education of biological researcher. So simple, who I am. I read always original papers.

And I earned my living with searching and sieving facts in my work 40 years after university.

"Randy Oliver is one of the most respected bee researchers on the planet " He is not first name when I start to look answers to beekeeping diseases.