Overwintering on Double Brood

[Dunbarrover]

In my third year. Opted to double brood (Nationals) all my hives to minimise swarming (Demaree). Not 100% successful, but worth a go.

Jury still out on DBL Brood as a way forward. A couple of hives very strong and laying extensively in both boxes and the honey crop from those is likely to be the best I've had, two full supers and a third on its way. Will be cropping next week.

Also I haven't found examining 22 brood frames rather than 11 as big a chore as was told it would be.

Thoughts now turning to overwintering. All of the hives have laid down a fair amount of stores in the outer brood frames, but will probably need supplementing by autumn feed.

My question is, would you normally expect to overwinter with a super of stores on the hives in addition to the two brood boxes? If so top or bottom of the hive?

 

[Poly Hive]

I expect mine to have enough in the two broods to do them and if needed (decided by hefting) I put on fondant in a super.

PH

 

[BeeNice]

Hi, once you have taken the stores and the queen has slowed the laying rate the bees will store in the available space, Double Brood boxes holds more stores than a single brood box with one super, with the same amount of bees going into winter.
Steven

 

[Travelator]

I think the goal is to go into winter with the top box mostly full of stores and the bottom box mostly full of brood (hoping that by the spring you will have a top box mostly full of brood and a bottom box mostly empty). You shouldn't need an extra super.

There are a number of ways to achieve the target configuration (eg. rearrange combs, trap the queen downstairs for a few weeks), but I haven't been doing this long enough to advise which one is best! You might have to fight against the bees' tendency to build a tall, thin brood nest with stores at the sides.

 

[Dunbarrover]

Thanks for the quick replies.

The "tall thin brood nest" issue was a problem outlined to me by a very experienced local keeper ( over 50 years). His view was that, during winter, if the cluster moved to one side to get the stores then they wouldn't move back across empty frames to get at the stores on the other side of the hive.

Any thoughts?

This was of course after he had explained just how wrong double brood was in the first place!

 

[Poly Hive]

Precisely the same argument applies to any brood box. Ho hum...

Isolation starvation is always a risk.

PH

 

[MJBee]

My double brood nationals over winter just fine. Anything they gather after I harvest in late August is supplemented with syrup until the hive exceeds 40 kg (OMF,dbl brood, solidcb and roof).

As has been said by Spring the bottom box is virtually empty and remaining stores and brood is in the top box - a good time to rotate any old frames out.

 

[Finman]

.
I have nursed 50 y unlimited brood are. Is one two or tree brood.

You cannot decide how much hives need for winter.
You see it when it is time to put them in winter condition.

My hives half have sometimes one box and another half two boxes. But never 3 boxes.
Quite seldom all have 2 boxes even if I want so.

My hives do now wintering bees. At the last half I may see how many boxes they need for winter if brood are in one box, that is the size of winter cluster. If the hive has 10-15 frames brood, it needs 2 boxes for winter.

 

[Outlander]

.
I have nursed 50 y unlimited brood are. Is one two or tree brood.

You cannot decide how much hives need for winter.
You see it when it is time to put them in winter condition.

My hives half have sometimes one box and another half two boxes. But never 3 boxes.
Quite seldom all have 2 boxes even if I want so.

My hives do now wintering bees. At the last half I may see how many boxes they need for winter if brood are in one box, that is the size of winter cluster. If the hive has 10-15 frames brood, it needs 2 boxes for winter.

I think

 

[oliver90owner]

Most of mine are condensed to a single box (equivalent to a brood and a half) for wintering. The odd few that are not are simply the ones that were too big at the time - when they go into cluster they would fit a single brood box.

But they would manage perfectly well in a 14 x 12 with two supers over, if I left them like that.

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

But they would manage perfectly well in a 14 x 12 with two supers over, if I left them like that.

Forgive me, RAB, but wouldn't that mean they were in a great big, largely empty cavern over winter? Wouldn't that mean wasting heat?

Sorry if I don't understand.


Dusty

 

[masterBK]

I winter all mine on double brood and have done so for decades with no obvious problems. However if you have very small colonies then pointless doing it. I also Demaree and it usually works as a swarm preventative measure but not this year.

2012 will go down as the year of the swarm when even colonies with current years queens swarmed, Hived swarms swarmed after a few weeks and swarms absconded after being hived within hours or a couple of days.

 

[oliver90owner]

Dusty,

Honey is 'heat' They may well consume much more stores; but they would get by no problem!

I was not suggesting empty supers and I was not suggesting they would want to endure a through draught (gaping holes in the crownboard or even matchsticks propping it open). The larger volume may well avoid the problem of dampness.

One has to understand the bees do not heat the hive, just their cluster and a large cluster will have a smaller surface area per bee. They would move upwards and would be far less likely to succumb to isolation starvation during the winter. Remember the coldest months are usually January/February.

It would not be ideal from my point of view as a beekeeper who would like some honey from the colony and a likely large surplus in the springtime which may be partly crystallised or may be lost were the colony to suffer a calamity is not seen by me as particularly efficient on my part.

I have had colonies which have stayed in the bottom box all winter (14 x 12 with a super over). Depends on the winter among other variables.

Think of a full Warre not harvested. The bees are in as near a natural environment while being hived. A huge store of honey and all winter to enjoy it. Convert that to a large cavity in a tree and we have a perfect analogy. The only difference is that spaced frames do not offer quite as much containment as a natural comb would (as in restricting air currents).

This colony survived two winters with no problem but that would have been much harsher than inside a protective box.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/esneri/4442448315/in/photostream

RAB

 

[Beeline]

...but wouldn't that mean they were in a great big, largely empty cavern over winter? Wouldn't that mean wasting heat?
Dusty

So long as you are not placing empty boxes above then IMO you're not providing a large empty cavern to heat.

Assuming you've installed a solid CB or at least a solid insulation block in the roof space, the main exposure to the cold is through the 'on plan' area below the nest (424 x 424mm in the case of a National) whether on OMF or solid floors. So, whether they're on single or double or double + super etc., their exposure is still the same 424 x 424mm area below.

If anything, as they consume stores in the lower section and move upwards as winter progresses, the lower box(es) acts as a wind baffle, helping to prevent heat loss rather than promote.

Happy to be convinced otherwise.