Overfull with stores

[jackstraw]

My two colonies were fed well in the autumn but possibly due to the mild winter both still are quite heavy when hefted. On the opportunities I have had to inspect the weather has been down to 11 degrees and so I have not been willing to carry out a proper inspection. I can see down through the glass crownboard that the central 8 frames have bees on them and the outer couple have uncapped stores - albeit I can only see down a few inches
My question is as much from a hypothetical position as much as anything - I am intrigued

What if too many frames are full of stores still.

The starting point in my boxes was 11 National deep frames all drawn so the energy consumption is going to be for warmth and food. If the bees wish to expand, as they surely do then what will they do if the cells are full of stores?

No doubt lack of space would lead to them swarming but if there are only winter bees then they possibly are not large enough for a viable swarm at this stage.

Would they ever dispose of the excess stores, find a way to burn the stores off, or just delay brood until the cells become available naturally.

In the meantime there seems to be a steady flow of pollen coming in so my bees will be needing somewhere to store this too!

 

[Pete D]

I would be considering adding a super in the next week or so as it starts to warm up again. Bees will have more space then and will be able to shift stores where they are needed.

 

[itma]

Jack, you need to inspect as soon as you get a warmish day. 10C can be warm enough with good sunshine and shelter from any wind.
Brood wants to be at 30+ so even exposing it to 20C is 'cold'.
But brood is actually remarkably rugged. You need to chill it for a long time to harm it.
Inspect without hanging around and you won't do any harm. Really!



Brood is quite heavy, though not quite as heavy as stores.

The bees will not 'waste' excess stores, it is a down-payment on this year's surplus.
Accordingly, excess stores will bring forward swarming to earlier in the season.

If your bees are being cramped for lack of laying space by excess stores (which I wouldn't really expect if the outer frame tops have been uncapped) then you, the beekeeper, need to do something about it.
The bees will simply swarm, they won't "make more room" for themselves.

 

[pargyle]

There has been a lot of discussion about hive space on here lately and my view from reading all of the relevant posts is that, at this stage of the season (it's still quite early), the best thing is to leave them be for a week or two.

The stores you can see at the top of the frames may not extend right to the centre and in the centre there will be areas of cells where the queen can still lay .. bees are not generally stupid and will be balancing the stores they have existing in the hive with the need for laying space and space for pollen for brood food.

It's forecast cold for the next week or so and I'm getting ready for a first quick run through the hive once it warms up a bit ... in my area it looks like the weekend of 5th April could be a likely opportunity.

My first look will be a quick run through to establish eggs, brood, remaining honey stores and pollen stores .. check for any signs of disease, clean the mesh floor if it needs it and put it all back together quickly. I'll have an empty frame or two at the ready in case the hive is completely congested but my first inspection is just going to be about seeing what it going on ... the next one, a week or so after, will be the one when I'll be doing any necessary manipulations and some checks on varroa levels (sugar roll or alcohol wash - plus, if there are drone cells perhaps a bit of uncapping as well).

Obviously, it's still going to be a bit early for queen cells (I hope !!) but if there are some in evidence when I do the first inspection then it's a different time table and Plan B.

Personally, I wouldn't panic ... plan ahead for your first inspection and then decide what is needed.

Edit ... Well ITMA's got a lot more experience than me so perhaps you should take his advice ... but I'm haniging on a bit .. it's 8 degress down here today and my colony temp is at 22.6 degrees - that's the temp they want in there so I'm not going to make it more difficult for them by turning the heating off !

 

[itma]

My two colonies were fed well in the autumn but possibly due to the mild winter both still are quite heavy when hefted. ...!

I would be considering adding a super in the next week or so as it starts to warm up again. Bees will have more space then and will be able to shift stores where they are needed.

Yes, but ...

You don't want bees shifting whatever you fed last autumn, up into a honey crop super!

And if the new super is new, and full of undrawn foundation frames, the bees may well ignore it.

 

[Pete D]

Yes, but ...

You don't want bees shifting whatever you fed last autumn, up into a honey crop super!

And if the new super is new, and full of undrawn foundation frames, the bees may well ignore it.

Maybe he has drawn supers

If its over loaded with stores they need shifting, either out of the hive by removing a few frames and replacing with drawn comb preferably or by giving them more space, ie a super. You cant just wait for them to eat their way through it.
In reality some autumn feed will always end up in a super, small amount no doubt, this can not be avoided as bees will shift stuff where it suits them.

 

[stephenpug]

if it is a prolific strain would it be worth thinking about double brood or brood and half ??

 

[itma]

Maybe he has drawn supers

If its over loaded with stores they need shifting, either out of the hive by removing a few frames and replacing with drawn comb preferably ... You cant just wait for them to eat their way through it.
In reality some autumn feed will always end up in a super, small amount no doubt, this can not be avoided as bees will shift stuff where it suits them.

Pete, it seems he does have one drawn super - but he was still feeding extra fondant only four weeks ago ...

If there's a theme to this spring, it looks like "Having kept fondant available on the hive all winter, I now discover that the brood box has got lots and lots of stores, and no empty comb for brooding".

Bait hive time for the rest of us!

Two healthy brood boxes have gone through the winter. The boxes are still reasonably heavy when hefting – obviously some stores/syrup still in there. I was away for the last couple of weeks so left them with an eke and a block of candy. Better they have some and don’t use it than need it and not have it.

Looking through the glass crownboard I can see that they have not touched the candy but both colonies are gradually filling the eke with burr comb.

Yesterday I noticed that they are also starting to bring in some pollen.

I have a wet super poised ready to go back on but was going to leave this until I open them up in April. My target is to end up with a brood and a half for each colony.

My question is should I lose the block of candy and the brace comb as soon as possible, even if it is a little cold and get a super but no queen excluder on now or delay for a bit

Logic tells me that they are building burr comb because they want more room – hopefully because the queen is laying ready for rape coming out in 3/4 weeks time - in which case I would really like to give her as much room as she needs, the trade-off is that the colony is going to get cold, albeit briefly

My suggestion would be, IF STILL aiming for brood an a half, to get the extra box on, whatever the weather.
And I'd add my normal reminder that if its a half brood, rather than a crop super, it would be so much better to have hoffman frames - even if created by adding the (imperfect but least bad) "hoffman converter clips" (from for example Thorne).

 

[drstitson]

if you NEED to inspect or manipulate hives it can/must be done in just about any weather.

waiting until the fabled T-shirt weather can frequently mean being caught out by swarming or at least swarm preps.

sure wait until a sunny still 15C+ day (sometime in june perhaps?) to start regular tinkering but if needs must.....

 

[Pete D]

Pete, it seems he does have one drawn super - but he was still feeding extra fondant only four weeks ago ...

If there's a theme to this spring, it looks like "Having kept fondant available on the hive all winter, I now discover that the brood box has got lots and lots of stores, and no empty comb for brooding".

Bait hive time for the rest of us!

QUOTE]

I guess a lot, me included put fondant on at oxallic time and the cold weather never arrived, the bees ate that instead of uncapping stores so a lot of hives now have a surplus.
I have several part used packs in the garage that I took off at the first chance after a quick look

Swarms at end of April no doubt as not much drone brood at present and what there is wont be mature enough to mate till the, so queen cells at Easter !

Swarm kit at the ready

 

[Ginger19]

I have the same problem with a hive on brood and a half. It feels nailed down, almost as heavy as it was in Autumn and must be still rammed with stores. It is also very well populated (I had previously attempted to remove the super underneath over a month ago and it was full of bees, so abandoned the idea).
It has been barely above 10degC, same for the next week so I have no chance of taking a look to assess the situation properly.

So would this work as a quick fix? Remove the super from underneath, add an empty drawn super on top with no Q excluder, shake in the bees from the removed super...I am presuming she has not started laying in the bottom super, although if she has perhaps these frames can be left in the top super when switched. Any opinions on this please? I feel urgent action is required - especially due to the number of bees in this hive.

 

[jackstraw]

Just to fill the gaps

My typo was to say I had uncapped stores in the outer frames - in fact I should have put capped stores

I was expecting to be away from home for most of Feb so on Jan 28 I added a block of candy to each of my two colonies not knowing at that stage if winter was going to arrive with a vengeance or as it turns out be a damp squib

Following good advice from ITMA and others I removed the uneaten blocks on 28 Feb

I did indeed have wet supers with (shallow frames with spacers) ready to put on. I am not often away but as my work diary has fallen I am likely to be out for much of April, I have therefore cleared the brace comb (full of stores and brood) from the eke which had been left on one brood box and added a wet super to each of my colonies.

They are a local mongrel and are not particularly prolific.

My thoughts are evolving and rather than brood and a half I am now intending to move them onto 14x12's later in the season

Many thanks for your comments, all of which were gratefully received

 

[galileo]

Most of mine haven't touched the fondant and still have plentiful stores in their boxes. I was tempted to swap some out with vacant drawn comb when I did a very quick run through on the 9th but a little voice in the back of my head reminded me that more colonies starve in April than over the winter months.

Nadirs will become supers at the next inspection if brood congestion looks imminent, and I didn't feed syrup to any but the nucs so sugar in honey isn't an issue.