Oh dear! Poorly mated Queen?

[Busybee123]

I had a colony that lost it's queen about 7 weeks ago. They produced queen cells and reared a new queen which emerged 4 weeks ago. During my inspection 1 week ago I saw eggs and some brood which looked like older drone larvae (I posted a thread about this) . I had another look a couple of days later and saw lots of eggs nicely laid at the bottom of the cells, and managed to see the queen. She was on a frame which I carefully put back in the box in the same position it came from.

Today's inspection showed mostly drone brood (domed cappings) in worker cells in the centre of 2 or 3 frames, no eggs that I could find, and no sign of the Queen, and no Queen cells.

Firstly I did not think that it was possible for a queen to become a drone layer after only 3 weeks from emergence.

I suspect my new queen was poorly mated, but would this explain the mostly drone larvae and the start-stop nature of her laying?

If anyone has any ideas about what is going on in this colony please tell me!

I think I'm probably going to have to requeen in any case....

 

[chickendave]

I had the same, queen laying great or so it seemed for around a week
Them frames of drone brood layed in worker cells eggs at the bottom of the cells around three frames worth over a couple of weeks
I shaked the bees onto the ground some thirty feet away then united them with the other nuc I made at the same time which took the best part of six weeks before she started to lay funny season this year but since I've bee keeping bees they have all been different so learning all the time

 

[Midland Beek]

Emergency-type queens often do not mate successfully, so that when they start to lay they are only capable of laying unfertilized eggs, which turn into drones. These so-called drone laying queens are worse than useless. It means your colony has had it because the bees are not in a position to get themselves queenright.

Re-queening is the only way to overcome this problem, and this may not succeed with old bees. And by which time the colony may have withered to nothingness.

Assuming your other colony is queenright, you could find the DLQ and kill her, and then unite your two colonies. Finding her may be difficult - DLQ's are often not much bigger than workers. The bees at some point might kill her anyway.

 

[Busybee123]

I had the same, queen laying great or so it seemed for around a week
Them frames of drone brood layed in worker cells eggs at the bottom of the cells around three frames worth over a couple of weeks
I shaked the bees onto the ground some thirty feet away then united them with the other nuc I made at the same time which took the best part of six weeks before she started to lay funny season this year but since I've bee keeping bees they have all been different so learning all the time

Thanks for your reply....Sounds very similar to my experience. Glad I'm not the only one!

 

[Busybee123]

Emergency-type queens often do not mate successfully, so that when they start to lay they are only capable of laying unfertilized eggs, which turn into drones. These so-called drone laying queens are worse than useless. It means your colony has had it because the bees are not in a position to get themselves queenright.

OK. So she did manage to mate, but not sucessfully, and then started to lay anyway. Hence the drone brood...

Re-queening is the only way to overcome this problem, and this may not succeed with old bees. And by which time the colony may have withered to nothingness.

Assuming your other colony is queenright, you could find the DLQ and kill her, and then unite your two colonies. Finding her may be difficult - DLQ's are often not much bigger than workers. The bees at some point might kill her anyway.

As I said above, I did see the DLQ queen earlier in the week, and she looked good - not huge, but you certainly would not mistake her for a worker.

So I need to kill the DLQ and then either try or requeen or unite.

I know requeening might not work, but surely worth a try?

Roughly what odds would you give me on it suceeding?

I wish I had requeened as soon as I realised the colony was queenless...but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it! I did try to source a mated queen at the time but did not have any luck locally - and that situation hasn't really changed.

If I unite with my other colony (which was a nuc I bought at the same time, and has done well - it is filling a national brood chamber) I'm going to end up with one large colony on double brood box. The thing that really puts me off doing this is that if the uniting process does not go smoothly and the queen in my "good" colony is killed, lost, or damaged, then I will be left with nothing at all. I don't think I want to take that risk.

Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to reply.

 

[Orpheus64]

I had the same problem I was given a shook swarm at the end of March, the old queen promptly went off lay and was superceded, the emergence of the new queen coincided with all the crap weathe we've been having. After nearly 5 weeks I finally saw the queen and the first signs of brood. That was three weeks ago. She turned out to be a DLQ. As I have another , stronger colony, decided to unite. Made preps last week and united Yestarday. Removed DLQ, added QE and newspaper and put strong colony on top of weak. Will visit them mid week to see how they are getting on. If you have a nother colony you too could consider uniting.http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/Smiles/cheers2.gif

 

[huntsman666]

If she didn't mate then you have a drone laying queen.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I agree with midland beek.

As you can identify the queen, remove her and then unite with the good colony is my suggestion. Uniting with newspaper is pretty reliable. It's getting late to make a nuc up but you could do that a week or two after uniting.
If the colony is a big one, you could keep on double brood over winter. If not too big, you could move the comb into a single brood in a week or two once united.

The old bees in the nuc will give honey-gathering bees to the united colony

 

[Busybee123]

Thanks for the replies.

I could unite with my other colony but i am totally paranoid that something would go wrong and I would loose the queen out of my other colony. With all the trouble I've had with this colony I am very wary about uniting it with my other one.

Thank goodness I bought 2 nucs to start off with. If I had only bought one and had all the trouble I've had with being queenless and then having a drone laying queen, I think i would have given up by now.

 

[RosieMc]

OK. So she did manage to mate, but not sucessfully, and then started to lay anyway. Hence the drone brood...



As I said above, I did see the DLQ queen earlier in the week, and she looked good - not huge, but you certainly would not mistake her for a worker.

So I need to kill the DLQ and then either try or requeen or unite.

I know requeening might not work, but surely worth a try?

Roughly what odds would you give me on it suceeding?

I wish I had requeened as soon as I realised the colony was queenless...but hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it! I did try to source a mated queen at the time but did not have any luck locally - and that situation hasn't really changed.

If I unite with my other colony (which was a nuc I bought at the same time, and has done well - it is filling a national brood chamber) I'm going to end up with one large colony on double brood box. The thing that really puts me off doing this is that if the uniting process does not go smoothly and the queen in my "good" colony is killed, lost, or damaged, then I will be left with nothing at all. I don't think I want to take that risk.

Thanks for the advice and for taking the time to reply.

Hello Busybee123

I am in a similar situation with one of my hives with possible drone laying Q. I can't find her so she could be a drone laying worker. Have you managed to solve your problem hive? Did you re-unite? What did you do?

I too, am worried about the queen in my 'good' colony getting killed if I do re-unite.

I am aware that this colony is probably doomed, but I feel I should try something and get some valuable experience

 

[Busybee123]

Hello Busybee123

I am in a similar situation with one of my hives with possible drone laying Q. I can't find her so she could be a drone laying worker. Have you managed to solve your problem hive? Did you re-unite? What did you do?

I too, am worried about the queen in my 'good' colony getting killed if I do re-unite.

I am aware that this colony is probably doomed, but I feel I should try something and get some valuable experience

No I haven't risked uniting my Drone Laying Queen colony with my good colony. I've ordered a new queen - she should have arrived in the post today but postman has been and no sign of new queen.

I was advised to cull the drone laying queen colony because of the difficulty in getting them to accept a new queen (all old bees, wrong time of year etc etc) but like you I want to try and save them. If it doesn't work at least I will have learned something from the experience.

I spent an hour going through the colony looking for the drone laying queen yesterday - could not find her. But there were no eggs or young larvae either, so she may be already gone. I saw her last week (before I knew she was a drone layer) and did not mark her because I was worried about damaging her. Mind you if I had marked her, I would be thinking now that her disappearance was my fault!

Some of the bee books make it all sound so simple and predictable, but I've learned that with bees, quite often 2 + 2 does not equal 4!

Good luck

 

[rae]

We have a similar set of problems and our plan is to:

- Kill the queen in the drone laying colonies, if we can find her. If we can't find her, tip them out at the other end of the field.

- Make up a small (2 frame) nuc from a good colony, introduce that to a new (bought) queen.

- Merge the 2 frame nuc with the DL colony.

This should provide enough impetus to the drone layers, without taking too much from the good colony.

 

[Busybee123]

We have a similar set of problems and our plan is to:

- Kill the queen in the drone laying colonies, if we can find her. If we can't find her, tip them out at the other end of the field.

- Make up a small (2 frame) nuc from a good colony, introduce that to a new (bought) queen.

- Merge the 2 frame nuc with the DL colony.

This should provide enough impetus to the drone layers, without taking too much from the good colony.

Your approach sounds very sensible and should increase your chances of success. However I only have one other colony, which is doing well, and I want to keep it that way! I don't want to risk a unite or even take a couple of frames out of it, because with my luck (or poor handling?) I would probably end up losing the queen.

I will try and introduce the new queen directly to the DLQ colony. I know it's risky (and some would say foolish), and I have been advised against it, but what do I have to loose (other than my time and the £20 I paid for the queen)?

I posted another thread asking for advice as to how to introduce a new queen and plumberman posted details of a method of queen introduction I had never come across before where the caged queen is put on top of the top bar of a frame. I'll give it a go and see how I get on.

 

[Stiffy]

No I haven't risked uniting my Drone Laying Queen colony with my good colony. I've ordered a new queen - she should have arrived in the post today but postman has been and no sign of new queen.

If your queen didnt arrive as promised, call the supplier to let them know. I ordered some beginning of year and when they didnt arrive called supplier to find they had been sent to Doncaster by Royal Mail instead of the sunny SW!

 

[Busybee123]

If your queen didnt arrive as promised, call the supplier to let them know. I ordered some beginning of year and when they didnt arrive called supplier to find they had been sent to Doncaster by Royal Mail instead of the sunny SW!

Any reason why Doncaster, or was it just random?

Thanks - I'll phone them if they don't arrive in tomorrow's post. They said I should get them today (Tuesday), but if not then tomorrow(Wednesday). I think they were sent ordinary first class post - not guaranteed next day.

 

[nonstandard]

I've had two queens through the post this year both took 2 days to arrive and both were fine.

Incidentally they were from different suppliers and I'm fairly certain that the problem was not at our end as our postie is quite interested in my bees.

 

[Stiffy]

Any reason why Doncaster, or was it just random?

I have no idea why Doncaster as the package was addressed properly, just a RM coxk-up I guess.
The queens did arrive in good condition following day thank goodness
Cheers
S

 

[Busybee123]

Thanks for your replies.

New queen arrived today in good condition (even though post code on envelope had been copied down wrong!). She was marked but not as large as I thought she would be. I told the postman what was in the envelope - not sure he believed me (but envelope did say "caution live bees" on it).

I managed to get the attandants out and recage the queen in a butler cage and put her in the hive. Bees don't seem to be showing any aggression towards her and I think they are feeding her, which is surely a good sign.

I'm using the "Steve Taber/Albert Knight/John Dews Method" as recommended by plumberman (details on Dave Cushman web site if you are interested)