OA 6% in distilled water,30%sugar + water

[Finman]

.


Can't you make smaller amount of tricklin stuff

for 3 two box hives or 5 one box hives

100 g water
100 g sugar
...7.5 g Oxalic acid

together 208 g

....7,5/208 = 3.6%

(it is not 3.2%)

 

[Finman]

.

It need not to be so accurate.
Switzerland uses 2.8% oxalic acid and Italy often 4%.

Follow 50% sugar. Don't save it but don't waste it.
It makes bee dirty and acid stays better on bee skin.
Bees rub the stuff carefully on themselves when they
try to clean off the dirty.

 

[dickndoris]

.


Can't you make smaller amount of tricklin stuff

for 3 two box hives or 5 one box hives

100 g water
100 g sugar
...7.5 g Oxalic acid

together 208 g

....7,5/208 = 3.6%

(it is not 3.2%)

Cheers Finman. I will do this tomorrow so I have it ready and to hand when req.

Rich

 

[ROACHMAN]

I bought some 6% oxalic acid solution from Maisemore last month.

I picked up a sheet of maisemore instructions. No mention of diluting it. Im confused now

 

[alanf]

Thanks all for your input. I live n learn! In the bin it goes or maybe down the loo. I will nip out get some crystals and brew my own then at least I know it will be right. I wonder how many more people have the 6% proof stuff and are about to maybe fry their bees?!?!?!? I feel a phone call coming on............

Rich

If you have the 6% premixed just dilute it rather than waste it. If you buy oxalic acid it's likely to be in 500g packs which for 3 or 4 hives will last decades.

To get to the proportions advocated by Hivemaker, take 100g of your 6% oxalic, 30% sugar premixed. Add 60g of sugar, add 30g of water.

100g of the 6% oxalic, 30% sugar premixed will have 6g of oxalic, 30g of sugar and 64g of water, you have made this up to 190g of solution which is likely to be enough for 3 or 4 hives:

64g +30g of water = 94g = 50%
30g +60g of sugar = 90g = 47%
6g of oxalic = 3.2%

The actual percentages are 3.16% oxalic, 47.4% sugar, 49.5% water but the round numbers are easier to work with. One of the small digital scales sold for 'postal' weighing is easily accurate enough to weigh to the gram in the 0-200g range.

 

[Finman]

.
European Union varroa group reaseched trickling 10 years and made a concept how to do it.
It has been copied to tens of countries. There are no better advide on this globe.

Take that 6% stuff 100 g
add water 20 g
add sugar 50 g



it makes 170 g where oxalic is 3,5%

it is to 2-4 hives. take more doses if you have more hives.

(in that concept you ha OA 6g, sugar 80g and water 84g

 

[Finman]

.
It is same if you make Alanf's recipe or mine. It makes no difference.

Hivemaker is a good guy.. It is good if you trust even to him.

Alanf's stuff is more. It is to 3 two box hive or 5 one box hive.

Maximum 40 ml to one box and maximum 50 ml to 2-box.

4 ml per bee occupied seam if the hive is smaller.

 

[Finman]

.
European Union varroa group reaseched trickling 10 years and made a concept how to do it.
It has been copied to tens of countries. There are no better advide on this globe.

Take that 6% stuff 100 g
add water 20 g
add sugar 50 g



it makes 170 g where oxalic is 3,5%

it is to 2-4 hives. take more doses if you have more hives.

(in that concept you ha OA 6g, sugar 80g and water 84g

 

[boca]

Concentration

If you read carefully Nanetti's papers he uses consistently this recipe:
75 g OA
1000 g sugar
1000 ml water

This solution gives you around 1670 ml solution of
3.2 % OA and 60% sugar.

Then you check the numbers and you say it is wrong. Strictly speaking it is wrong indeed. In practice it is right.


The misunderstanding comes from the fact that we are talking about Mass concentration units.

Scientists of biology use the % as a special jargon to shorten the g/100ml unit

Every time you read a scientific paper in the field of biology in your mind you have to replace the % with g/100ml.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_concentration_%28chemistry%29#Usage_in_biology

The concentration correctly is
3.2 g/100ml Oxalic acid and 60 g/100ml sugar in aqueous solution.

 

[Finman]

.
Boca. Now you invent your own.

1:1 =50%. Not 60%.


When Nanetti first used the recipe 1988, it was quite different than at the end of researches about 2005.
..........

These advices are meant even the stupist beekeepers. Me Master of Science in biology and you Chemistry Engineer we are too wise to handle this. It is impossible to us.

 

[oliver90owner]

This thread could run for another couple of months yet!

 

[Finman]

This thread could run for another couple of months yet!

say years.... it has lasted now only 5 years.

 

[alanf]

.
It is same if you make Alanf's recipe or mine. It makes no difference.

Hivemaker is a good guy.. It is good if you trust even to him.

Alanf's stuff is more. It is to 3 two box hive or 5 one box hive.

Maximum 40 ml to one box and maximum 50 ml to 2-box.

4 ml per bee occupied seam if the hive is smaller.

Agreed. We are aiming to get from the higher concentration of the prepared solution to the concentration advocated by Hivemaker. We just used different approximations. The concentration we're aiming for is as noted by Finman in European Union Varroa group and by Boca in papers by Nanetti. The formula is 75g oxalic acid dihydrate, 1000g sugar, 1000g of water.

There are a couple of complications that may need explanation, apologies for repeating what is scattered elsewhere but if it's available like this is a single reference, I can't find it.

One is the practice, as noted by Boca that there has been a tendency to abbreviate the mass concentration as '%' this is what in English would be a weight/volume ratio or w/v. I'm pretty sure this is a deprecated practice because it does cause confusion, if % is used without other indication it should be weight/weight (w/w). In water it makes little practical difference since 1000ml is 1000g to commonplace levels of precision at room temperature. Where it does make a difference is for other solvents such as alcohols, oils or syrups where the density is not 1g/ml.

The second complication is that oxalic acid is available as a dihydrate crystal. That is each molecule is bound to two water molecules. The net result when dissolved is that the water does not figure in the weight of oxalic acid. For every 90g of oxalic acid, you measure 126g of the dihydrate crystals because of the added water.

75g of oxalic acid crystals in 1000g of water plus 1000g of sugar gives 3.2% oxalic acid weight for weight.

The prepared solutions, unfortunately are labelled as weight/volume 'percentages'. If you can make out the labels the 'New Zealand formula' clearly states 4.5g of oxalic and 60g of sugar made up to 100ml. What is clear is that 100ml contains the stated weight. As noted by MuswellMetro what is not clear from the bottle is if that is the weight of dihydrate crystals. There is an EC authorisation number that might be explicit, I don't see why it cannot be on the bottle but it isn't.

One more translation point, the prominent label at the top "Materiale per l'ENOLOGIA e l'APICOLTURA" means "material for wine making and bee keeping", the supplying company is Enolapi S.r.l. of Via E.Torricelli 69/a 37136 Verona Italia.

 

[Finman]

.
This is ridiculous!

varroa Group made a hard work 10 years. They tried different stuffs, calculated dead mites, calulated allive mites by killingmthem d different methods, and they put effective but sfae limits to stuffs.

They made clear concept how to do it.

When issue was clear, then arrived a gang of calculators. Look, it was allready calculated.
Now for years it has been calculated again and again. That is funny!

And for years calculations has been for 50 hives. Who has so much?

 

[Finman]

Agreed. We are aiming to get from the higher concentration of the prepared solution to the concentration advocated by Hivemaker. We just used different approximations. The concentration we're aiming for is as noted by Finman in European Union Varroa group and by Boca in papers by Nanetti. The formula is 75g oxalic acid dihydrate, 1000g sugar, 1000g of water.
Enolapi S.r.l. of Via E.Torricelli 69/a 37136 Verona Italia.

Nanetti is the inventor of trickling and a head of EU varroa group.
Nothing difference between Nanetti and Group.

Nanetti uses different concentrations in his researches. He makes them all the time.


Only Boca has thinked over his own explanation.

Trickling is now so old, that it nees not these explanations.

The most funny what I have seen is that trickling is against the law of British Empire!

.

 

[boca]

cooling the nest in autumn

My question is if I follow the standard advice of the forum ie. omf, crownboard holes covered, and insulation in the roof space how do I know the hive will be broodless? Aren't those conditions ideal for encouraging the queen to continue to lay? ... I think I should maybe not insulate and provide some top ventilation to encourage the queen to stop laying, until after oxalic.

I know beekeepers who ventilate the nest in autumn in order to stop the brooding.

It could be useful in the UK as well.

After the 'Apiguard' treatment (in August-September), it is recommended that the catch tray should be removed, the insulation taken out of the cover board and some top ventilation re-instated. This will make me hive much cooler (I know this will horrify some people) and ensure the cessation of brood-rearing as the weather gets colder.

dave[minus]cushman.net/bee/wallyshaw.html

 

[Into the lions den]

75g Oxalic, dissolved in 1 litre warm water, add 1KG sugar.........dissolve thoroughly.........use at 5ml per seam trickled on the length of the seam. All that is needed to know. Gives a concentration that is just fine for a UK setting.

If one wanted to muddy the waters about peoples calculations and what this actually means in terms of a percentage you have to remember that the target concentration for here is 3 to 3.5%, and the disputes over what the concentration actually is using the above recipe forget it is a simplistic measure to cater for those just weighing out the crystals. The crystals are not pure oxalic acid. They contain water, hence the actual name which shows that they contain water molecules. In fact 30 126ths is the water of crystallisation, and once the crystals are dissolved this is part of the water, not part of the acid, and it is dissolved in a medium which is well under 2 litres as well but weighs 2 kilos. By weight or by volume?

Can warp the brain working all that out ad nauseum......stick to the recipe, it works, and is cheap as chips, the sugar more expensive than the acid.

Accuracy of concentration is a significant factor, no need to be 'retentive' about utter exactness, after all at a very arbitrary 5ml per seam...........how many bees to a seam? Is the the BS or metric standard seam? All very approximate. However..HAVE heard of significant damage going in with it too strong.......stronger is not actually better in this case, rather treat more than once with the standard doseage if you feel you have to.

 

[Finman]

75g Oxalic, dissolved in 1 litre warm water, add 1KG sugar.........dissolve thoroughly.........use at 5ml per seam trickled on the length of the seam. All that is needed to know. Gives a concentration that is just fine for a UK setting.

.

yes that is the secret. It has been calculated ready and you need not your own calculations.

But please professinals! could you use 100g + 100 g +7,5g amounts. Very few needs 2 kg that stuff.

 

[boca]

Oxalic acid and HMF content

Whatever its concentration I would avoid buying a prepared sugar syrup in an acid solution. It is safer (for the bees) to prepare freshly the solution.

dave[minus]cushman.net/bee/oxalicstorage.html

What is the colour of this italian preparation?

 

[Finman]

The crystals are not pure oxalic acid. They contain water, hence the actual name which shows that they contain water molecules. In fact 30 126ths is the water of crystallisation, and once the crystals are dissolved this is part of the water, not part of the acid, and it is dissolved in a medium which is well under 2 litres as well but weighs 2 kilos. By weight or by volume?
.

to where we call ambulance now.....do we call it with phone or with shoe? (Maxwell Smart)