Nucleus method

[Do224]

The swarm I caught 22 days ago is building up at an astonishing rate. When I inspected on day 18 they had drawn out 8 frames and 6 or 7 of these were packed with brood (in a big rectangular slab covering most of the frame...not just a rugby ball in the middle). I’m expecting a population explosion this week (as the first brood begins to emerge) and presume I’ll need a super on very soon.

I’m trying to get prepared in case I start finding swarm cells. I think my plan of action would be the nucleus split as described here The nucleus method - The Apiarist

What I’m wondering is...would this be a case of job done for this year i.e. could the bees over winter in the 6 frame nuc... or would they likely try and swarm again and need more space before winter? Trying to gauge if I need some more spare equipment!

 

[drex]

I am a bit confused. You say they have drawn 8 frames but then mention a 6 frame nuc.
To try to answer your question. They may try to swarm again, they may not. Bees will be bees.
Taking a 6 frame nucs through winter needs more skill than taking a full size colony through.
Remember, a shallow box above a QX does not supply more laying space directly, which is what they probably will need.
Today I put a queen in a nucs when I found just one, about to be sealed queen cell. Probable supercedure but did not want to risk it. I will see how it goes rather than make plans now for the nuc

 

[madasafish]

The swarm I caught 22 days ago is building up at an astonishing rate. When I inspected on day 18 they had drawn out 8 frames and 6 or 7 of these were packed with brood (in a big rectangular slab covering most of the frame...not just a rugby ball in the middle). I’m expecting a population explosion this week (as the first brood begins to emerge) and presume I’ll need a super on very soon.

But, I’m also wanting to get prepared in case I start finding swarm cells. My plan of action would be the nucleus split as described here The nucleus method - The Apiarist

What I’m wondering is...would this be job done for this year I.e. could the bees over winter in the 6 frame nuc... or would they likely try and swarm again and need more space before winter?

I would put a second brood box on if they are building up so quickly.

Forget nucs at present .

 

[Boston Bees]

What I’m wondering is...would this be a case of job done for this year i.e. could the bees over winter in the 6 frame nuc... or would they likely try and swarm again and need more space before winter? Trying to gauge if I need some more spare equipment!

Yes that could well be all you need to do for the year, should you have to deal with swarm cells

 

[Do224]

Ok, thanks both. Was hoping to keep things as simple as possible this year as it’s all new to me. Trying to manage a double brood colony does sound a bit intimidating.

If I put another brood box on can this be done as a swarm prevention measure when queen cells start to be seen, or would I have to make the decision to do it prior to seeing queen cells?

 

[Boston Bees]

If I put another brood box on can this be done as a swarm prevention measure when queen cells start to be seen, or would I have to make the decision to do it prior to seeing queen cells?

Once swarm cells are started adding space does nothing. The decision has already been made.

Adding space now could indeed prevent the situation developing in the first place. But remember that adding foundation is not adding space. They will probably just ignore it given we are already in July.

Adding drawn comb is adding space.

So unless you have a brood box of drawn comb to add, I'd wouldn't add a second box now.

What you could do is take out an excess frame of stores, if there is one, and put in a frame of foundation or drawn comb. That will give them the sensation that their job isn't finished. Put it between the brood nest and the stores frames (not right at the edge of the box)

 

[Do224]

Once swarm cells are started adding space does nothing. The decision has already been made.

Adding space now could indeed prevent the situation developing in the first place. But remember that adding foundation is not adding space. They will probably just ignore it given we are already in July.

Adding drawn comb is adding space.

So unless you have a brood box of drawn comb to add, I'd wouldn't add a second box now.

Ahh ok thanks. That makes a big difference as I’m a complete newbie so haven’t any drawn comb.

So back to plan A. I’ll give them a super, possibly this week. I’m planning to do this as soon as there are 8 frames of brood and/or bees...although not sure what to do if they meet this criteria but still have a couple of frames of foundation to draw out. Should I still add a super or wait for them to draw out the full box?

Then keep fingers crossed for no swarm cells but if any do appear I’ll do the nucleus method split. It’ll be into a homemade 6 frame nuc constructed from 10mm plywood. I guess I’ll need to insulate it in some way for the winter...perhaps I could make it a ‘tea cozy’ type of thing out of some foam insulation boards

 

[Boston Bees]

Should I still add a super or wait for them to draw out the full box?

I would make them draw those two frames of foundation out in the brood box first, but they will only do this if the foundation is next to comb with brood in, not stuck out next to the hive walls, beyond frames of honey

 

[Do224]

I would make them draw those two frames of foundation out in the brood box first, but they will only do this if the foundation is next to comb with brood in, not stuck out next to the hive walls, beyond frames of honey

Ok will move them, thanks

 

[Boston Bees]

Then keep fingers crossed for no swarm cells but if any do appear I’ll do the nucleus method split. It’ll be into a homemade 6 frame nuc constructed from 10mm plywood. I guess I’ll need to insulate it in some way for the winter...perhaps I could make it a ‘tea cozy’ type of thing out of some foam insulation boards

Please don't try to overwinter anything in this. Just buy a poly nuc (Maisemore, BS Honey, Paynes, whatever) and have done with it. You'll get so much use out of it

That wooden nuc is for temporary summer accommodation only IMHO

 

[user 20297]

So back to plan A. I’ll give them a super, possibly this week.

I you do give them a shallow box above, you could always do that without an excluder. In that way you've given them a possibility of a little upwards expansion, which, as you're anticipating, they may yet do.

 

[Do224]

I you do give them a shallow box above, you could always do that without an excluder. In that way you've given them a possibility of a little upwards expansion, which, as you're anticipating, they may yet do.

If you end up with brood and a half or double brood, what happens as you go into winter...does it stay ‘as is’ or do you condense back to single brood somehow?

 

[user 20297]

If you end up with brood and a half or double brood, what happens as you go into winter...does it stay ‘as is’ or do you condense back to single brood somehow?

If you give them the opportunity to use the space for brood rearing, they may expand right into it or just a little. By the end of the summer, everyone here will be talking about all the options for getting them into winter trim, so you can tailor advice to the situation as you find it then.. My guess is that they will end up shrinking back with some brood in the centre of the box immediately above the main brood-box with a layer of honey above and around; that's what happened with mine in the same circumatance last year.

 

[Do224]

Please don't try to overwinter anything in this. Just buy a poly nuc (Maisemore, BS Honey, Paynes, whatever) and have done with it. You'll get so much use out of it

That wooden nuc is for temporary summer accommodation only IMHO

Ok thanks, this Beekeeping business is getting quite expensive.

Was hoping to save a few quid by making my own nucs but I guess I better get my hand in my pocket again and get a poly one.

What happened in the days before poly, did beekeepers not overwinter wooden nucs...or is it a case of ‘they did, but there were heavy losses’?

 

[user 819]

Beeks would wrap them up, use polystyrene/PIR outer covers or if one had several keep them all together to prevent heat loss.

 

[jool]

Over wintering wooden nucs outside is a no no for me unless they are in a shed flying outside via a tube. Poly nucs however work great. Just pay more attention to food levels as there is obviously less room for stores

 

[Do224]

I’ve got loads of leftover 50mm insulation board so was intending to make a ‘cozy’ for the nucs with that. Should end up similarly insulated to a poly nuc I would have thought...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Please don't try to overwinter anything in this.
That wooden nuc is for temporary summer accommodation only IMHO

I've overwintered loads of colonies in nucs made from 10 0r 12mm ply in the past - with just a piece of celotex in the roof and I know of people who have done the same. So to say you shouldn't/can't is a nonsense. The main reason I changed to Maisie's poly nucs is convenience/low maintenance.