New queen into failing queen less Nuc

[birdsandbees]

Hi all,

I helped someone out last night after a conversation about their one and only Nuc dwindling, after speaking with them at the weekend about it he said that the numbers were low and he had only seen a few capped cells dotted around with no queen visible but he wasn't sure if he had one, I suggested that even if he did have a queen she was failing and said I'd help locate a new one, new queen taken to be introduced last night and when we opened the Nuc it was clear that the numbers were very low indeed with barely sufficient bees to cover two frames! Lots of Drones and drone brood dotted around on the comb. ( laying worker)
Definitely no queen present so after a check for Veroa and disease I have introduced the queen I her cage but I am really quite concerned about it.

The queen is inseminated and was laying before being caged.

The question is this...

Is it too late! I'm worried that there are insufficient bees left to kick start them again, how few is too few and will they be too old to live long enough for any new brood to hatch!
I really don't want to lose the good quality pure bred queen!

 

[Erichalfbee]

The most important thing you have to consider is whether you DO have a queen. You say not but how do you know? If the bees are definitely queen-less then you need to dummy them down to two frames. One for brood and one of stores. Close entrance to one bed space to prevent robbing.
Edit. I just went back to your post. If you think you have laying workers then the bees will not accept a new queen as they think they already have one

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

better chance if a few successive frames of eggs/brod had been introduced to the hive

 

[birdsandbees]

Yes, I was toying with the idea of lending him a frame of brood from my Nuc as they have six with brood on? Wasn't sure whether it was a good idea what with the queen introduction as well?

 

[Obee1]

I think laying workers just nobbled a virgin queen of mine. You have to be so careful introducing queens. In future I think I will use test frames to establish queenless ness before risking a valued queen.
Can you go back tonight and rescue your queen. Hopefully they won't have released her candy plug yet. If she was mine I'd make up a few frames from one of your hives to keep her in till you decide what to do. The smallest unit to keep her in at this time of year would be 2 frames preferably in a poly nuc. - one food one brood. Reduce entrance to one bee space. Summer is not over yet. You might manage to grow her into a colony big enough to overwinter - especially in poly nuc.
Or the laying workers have done her in ....
Not sure it's really possible To save his colony. They will soon die of old age.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, I was toying with the idea of lending him a frame of brood from my Nuc as they have six with brood on? Wasn't sure whether it was a good idea what with the queen introduction as well?

introducing brood is never a bad idea, I had a failed nuc last month which had laying workers and just happened to have a hive in the same apiary with QC's so instead of shaking them out as I usually do I popped in a frame with brood and a QC on - no sign of laying workers in a couple of weeks, so it is sometimes enough to cool them down. New queen and brood may be even better.

 

[birdsandbees]

So excuse my inexperience, how do I locate and remove the laying worker/workers from his Nuc before I give him some brood and will his bees cope with a full frame of brood?
Also, should I introduce a frame with as many capped cells as possible?

Also, I didn't say but he's my brother hence trying to help as much as possible

 

[snelgrove]

the fact that there is barely enough bees to cover the frame is important, even if a new queen was successfully introduced I don't think it would be strong enough to winter, unless after introduction further brood was added or bees, preferably both.

 

[birdsandbees]

So you think the best chance would be for him to bring his Nuc to mine so I can insert a frame of brood with Bees on it? Do I do it now while she is still in her cage?
Will there be sufficient bees left on the frame after the flyers have returned to their original Nuc?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So excuse my inexperience, how do I locate and remove the laying worker/workers from his Nuc before I give him some brood and will his bees cope with a full frame of brood?
Also, should I introduce a frame with as many capped cells as possible?

Also, I didn't say but he's my brother hence trying to help as much as possible

You want to put a frame of brood in where the bees are on the point of emerging - a frame with not too much bees left to emerge is ideal at first,
(bees don't need to work too hard to keep it warm and instant new bees within hours of introduction)followed by a second in a few days,you don't transfer bees as well as it could cause fighting.
Do it as soon as possible - hopefully the queen is still in her cage and doing well.

 

[Mrs Shoot]

better chance if a few successive frames of eggs/brod had been introduced to the hive

The bees think they have a queen so will kill the introduced one. You need to put in a frame of open brood (eggs, larvae), to suppress the laying workers. This will take a couple of week, with a frame of open brood being added weekly. You will find after three weeks the laying workers will be suppressed and the colony should accept a new queen.

 

[BeeJayBee]

So you think the best chance would be for him to bring his Nuc to mine so I can insert a frame of brood with Bees on it? Do I do it now while she is still in her cage?
Will there be sufficient bees left on the frame after the flyers have returned to their original Nuc?

You could move the nuc, but only if it's more than 3 miles. The last sentence suggests it isn't, so too many bees would be lost.

If you have enough to spare you could try adding nurse bees from other colonies to boost numbers to look after a frame of brood, ecause if you mix bees from more than two colonies they don't fight because of the mix of pheromones.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Best make up a new nuc as Obi1 suggested that's a safer plan to use your spare queen

 

[birdsandbees]

Okay... Update

The numbers were decimated by wasps after they discovered the weak colony with supplied of food, that coupled with dwindling older bees anyway so I had him bring the hive to me, I recaptured the queen, shook out in front of the Nuc the less than a cup full of bees remaining and added a good couple of frames of capped and open brood from my Nuc with bees on, I have replaced to new queen around an hour later I her cage.

Basically rather than a salvage mission I thing I have just created him a new split!

Look like some of his bees have found there way back in and seem to be mixing okay.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Good call birdsandbees fondant might be safer than syrup getting wax drawn now

 

[birdsandbees]

Oh nuts!

Checked the little colony yesterday, they appear to be under siege by both wasps and robbing bees! I narrowed the entrance right down yesterday and had a good wasp catch and splat session so reduced those a bit, I have closed the entrance completely overnight to see if I have robbers waiting to get in but it's pouring down at present so nothing on the front.
The other real disappointments were that 1. No sign of the queen! No eggs or young brood but several emergency QC's seen on the frames, could she have been killed by the wasps? The bees seemed fine with her? 2. Quite a few of the introduced brood have now hatched so numbers are up But I have seen a number of bees with Veroa on them walking around! with no young brood will they be on the adults waiting for new brood? Is it safe to treat with the whole situation being on a knife edge? Do I just resign myself to this colony being doomed!?
I have made plans to move them again if I can't control the robbing but this is so sad, I'm trying but the odds seem stacked against them and the weather isn't helping.
Just to add, although robbing seems apparent they do have decent stores on the frames both with and without brood on but all the syrup that was in the Nuc has now gone, I suspect for the most part taken by wasps and other bees.

 

[birdsandbees]

I left them in til around nine today and noted a couple bees and a couple of wasps waiting for the snack bar to open! After dispatching the wasps and chasing off the bees I've now opened up with a very small gap and all seems quiet with a very gentle trickle of bees coming out to forage.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

After dispatching the wasps

killing wasps in the vicinity of the beleaguered hive is just going to attract a lot more wasps to the site

 

[birdsandbees]

I did see on another thread that killing the foraging wasps could attract others but the logic doesn't follow in my head I'm afraid, if you killed the scouts then they can't report back surely.
Also, I know that the weather is poor so I'm taking that into account but there are definitely less wasps around trying to get into the hive and by less I mean only an occasional one.
Btw they were netted and stepped on away from the hive

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

so you're confident you've killed every scout wasp in the area then? I think i'd rather believe years of research and knowledge than just some strange logic that you have gathered on reading another thread. But then, they're not my bees, so do as you see fit