Never had colonys like it.

[Curly green finger's]

A bit like some on here

Thanks I like to think so.
I'll just agree!

 

[Karol]

Just a vain attempt to sow some doom and gloom to take the edge off a decent harvest

On the contrary. Anticipating the weather and knowing when to batten down the hatches is hardly negative.

Anecdotally when we used to monitor wasp populations we noticed that when wasps had a two progeny cycle we had colder winters. Not putting any store by those observations because statistically it was only four times in twenty years that we observed this phenomenon.

Just curiosity that made me ask. Beekeepers tend to be more in tune with nature around them so I just wondered if they had noticed such a correlation.

Ultraviolet levels are about a fraction of what they would be because we are in a solar minimum. Given that honeybees use ultraviolet signals to navigate to blooms it's not beyond conjecture that their world might be 'dimmer' which might in turn influence their foraging intensity building up bigger stores to last longer.

(Edited to change 1000th to fraction as 1000th is meaningless as uv is absorbed by oxygen in the upper atmosphere)

 

[Curly green finger's]

On the contrary. Anticipating the weather and knowing when to batten down the hatches is hardly negative.

Anecdotally when we used to monitor wasp populations we noticed that when wasps had a two progeny cycle we had colder winters. Not putting any store by those observations because statistically it was only four times in twenty years that we observed this phenomenon.

Just curiosity that made me ask. Beekeepers tend to be more in tune with nature around them so I just wondered if they had noticed such a correlation.

Ultraviolet levels are about a 1000th of what they would be because we are in a solar minimum. Given that honeybees use ultraviolet signals to navigate to blooms it's not beyond conjecture that their world might be 'dimmer' which might in turn influence their foraging intensity building up bigger stores to last longer.

I was going to say about altraviolet light but I didnt know how to put it

 

[Wilco]

On the contrary. Anticipating the weather and knowing when to batten down the hatches is hardly negative.

Anecdotally when we used to monitor wasp populations we noticed that when wasps had a two progeny cycle we had colder winters. Not putting any store by those observations because statistically it was only four times in twenty years that we observed this phenomenon.

Just curiosity that made me ask. Beekeepers tend to be more in tune with nature around them so I just wondered if they had noticed such a correlation.

Ultraviolet levels are about a 1000th of what they would be because we are in a solar minimum. Given that honeybees use ultraviolet signals to navigate to blooms it's not beyond conjecture that their world might be 'dimmer' which might in turn influence their foraging intensity building up bigger stores to last longer.

Not sure this correlates well with the weather I've experienced this year... The Met Office UV Index has certainly been similar to that of previous years and whilst I've not been out in the sun over 1000x longer than I used to a few years back but I've definitely got a better tan. What data are you basing the '1000th' claim on?

 

[Karol]

Not sure this correlates well with the weather I've experienced this year... The Met Office UV Index has certainly been similar to that of previous years and whilst I've not been out in the sun over 1000x longer than I used to a few years back but I've definitely got a better tan. What data are you basing the '1000th' claim on?

Sorry. The atmosphere filters out UV so levels at the surface of the Earth don't vary anywhere near as much and you are quite right to pull me up on this and I have edited my original post accordingly. That said there is a substantial difference between solar uv emissions during minima and maxima which does still result in changes at the Earth's surface. The uv spectrum covers a range of wavelengths so quoting a total uv figure will mask variations in specific wavelengths that honeybees might be tuned into which might affect foraging effort.

 

[Wilco]

Sorry. The atmosphere filters out UV so levels at the surface of the Earth don't vary anywhere near as much and you are quite right to pull me up on this and I have edited my original post accordingly. That said there is a substantial difference between solar uv emissions during minima and maxima which does still result in changes at the Earth's surface. The uv spectrum covers a range of wavelengths so quoting a total uv figure will mask variations in specific wavelengths that honeybees might be tuned into which might affect foraging effort.

Any idea on whether the surface level data backs this up or where to find such data? [Edit: what you're saying sounds logical, just to me it seems even changing to a fraction of the amount of UV would still cause such significant changes in light levels that I'd expect even humans would notice without special sensing kit.]

 

[rolande]

Well they do know before us when the weather is going to change, after all they are in tune with the world on different levels to use.

But I'd say that's a reaction to short term subtle changes which we may not be so aware of (bred out of us perhaps). The French bees which MP mentioned were definitely said to be using anticipatory behaviour over a much longer time scale.

 

[Karol]

Any idea on whether the surface level data backs this up or where to find such data? [Edit: what you're saying sounds logical, just to me it seems even changing to a fraction of the amount of UV would still cause such significant changes in light levels that I'd expect even humans would notice without special sensing kit.]

Perhaps you might find this an interesting read:
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0959683619875798

 

[Wilco]

Perhaps you might find this an interesting read:
https://tinyurl.com/j7zmju57
Edit: Sorry about the tinyurl but the direct link won't unfurl properly. Academic paper on uvB.

Forgive me but I'm not sure how this counts as data... The abstract basically says 'we can't tell what the historic UV levels were so we guessed them and then found the levels we guessed correlated with levels of a substance we measured therefore the substance we measured can be used to determine previous UV levels'. To my mind that's circular reasoning. It then goes on to say that this somehow proves that the surface UV levels are affected more by solar output directly than by ozone levels which are affected by solar output. I struggle to comprehend how this can be inferred from the pollen analysis.

The introduction appears to argue against your reduced UV because we're in a solar minimum claim though-- whilst admitting conclusive evidence is lacking it states that solar maxima increase ozone production which should reduce the amount of UV reaching the surface and solar minima result in a drop in ozone formation ultimately leading to more UV reaching the surface during a minimum cycle- an inverse correlation.

What that paper does say is that there are compounds certain species of plant seem to increase in their pollen in response to high UV-B based on the handful of decades we have data for. They find that these levels fluctuate in the past and hypothesise that this can be used to predict previous surface UV-B levels. We cannot be sure if this inference is correct as we don't have solid data to correlate it with, only theoretical models. Likewise, I'm not sure their conclusions about ozone levels are logical inferrable from their research.

I don't have time to read the full paper thoroughly but from what I've gone through I'd say they have found something but, to paraphrase an excellent film, I do not think it means what they think it means.

 

[polymath]

Hi, update on the big colony I've extracted just over 110 lbs of vetch honey from the big colony a crazy amount really on the 24th of July they still have 5 supers on know and there is fresh Nectar and some capped frames back in the frames.
The vetch is going over now but what has been done is in 4 fields vetch and white/red clover has been sown together and the clover is know flowering.
Also some of the field margins have been sown with nectar rich flowers so I'm hoping to see what comes of them.
By the time I've processed the honey so far we will have 1100 jars of spring honey, vetch, clover, and whatever else is in the honey, lime etc..
I have 6 buckets still to process and averaging 45/60 jars per bucket.
Im now concentrating my efforts on heather and late summer forage plus some splits I want to do.
But after today i spent 4.5 hrs making boxes and frames which have gone out and now I'm back to dregs again!

So far including the spring honey of this colony they are upto 145lbs of honey from just that one.

Lucky you here in Surrey we have had no spring flow, no real summer flow and have hives post the flow that if are not fed would be considered starving.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Lucky you here in Surrey we have had no spring flow, no real summer flow and have hives post the flow that if are not fed would be considered starving.

Lucky employer not my honey mate..
My spring flows at home were good but the summer not so good I'm hoping crossed fingers on the Heather as I've moved most colonys to the Heather.( at home)

 

[Wilco]

Lucky you here in Surrey we have had no spring flow, no real summer flow and have hives post the flow that if are not fed would be considered starving.

Where in Surrey?

 

[Curly green finger's]

But I'd say that's a reaction to short term subtle changes which we may not be so aware of (bred out of us perhaps). The French bees which MP mentioned were definitely said to be using anticipatory behaviour over a much longer time scale.

It would be nice if @Michael Palmer would give us his input as it's a very interesting subject?

 

[Ian123]

Lucky you here in Surrey we have had no spring flow, no real summer flow and have hives post the flow that if are not fed would be considered starving.

Well there was some spring honey it just got eaten, as for the summer flow July was rather good. Ian

 

[Karol]

Forgive me but I'm not sure how this counts as data... <snip>

Don't recall suggesting it was.

This is just all conjecture about whether honeybees are able to anticipate and provision for weather based on their environmental surroundings.

I thought the paper was interesting because it 'suggested' plants respond chemotactically to solar cycles as opposed to seasonal cycles based on changes in uvB levels which might of itself modify foraging behaviour.

 

[Wilco]

Don't recall suggesting it was.

This is just all conjecture about whether honeybees are able to anticipate and provision for weather based on their environmental surroundings.

I thought the paper was interesting because it 'suggested' plants respond chemotactically to solar cycles as opposed to seasonal cycles based on changes in uvB levels which might of itself modify foraging behaviour.

Not sure we'd be able to detect seasonal cycles using pollen... [edit: changes in UV response of plants linked to seasonal cycles using pollen]

I did ask for data to back up what you were saying and you responded with that paper. I inferred that was what you were using to back up your theory. Apologies for my misunderstanding although my original question still stands-- do you have any data to back up your statement that:

'Ultraviolet levels are about a fraction of what they would be because we are in a solar minimum.'?

I can comprehend fluctuations based on minima/maxima/ozone levels but the scale you imply sounds a little enthusiastic.

 

[Karol]

<snip>

'Ultraviolet levels are about a fraction of what they would be because we are in a solar minimum.'?

I can comprehend fluctuations based on minima/maxima/ozone levels but the scale you imply sounds a little enthusiastic.

https://tinyurl.com/tukvnzja
Please note that the figures quoted are as far as I understand for Milankovitch cycles rather than grand solar minimums.

(Edit - problem unfurling url from NASA)

 

[rolande]

It would be nice if @Michael Palmer would give us his input as it's a very interesting subject?

OK, nothing better to do with my early morning....

MP was referring to a talk which he had heard.

He wrote, on beesource in a thread titled 'German Black Bees' (Dec 2005):

"Did you get to see Jamie Strange's talk on the local bees of France...in the Lavender region? Quite fascinating".

"His presentation was about local bees in France. He showed that the mellifera bees had a brood rearing spike just before the Lavender flow. It was as if they "knew" that the flow was coming. The Buckfast bees that were brought in by migratory beekeepers had a brood rearing spike on the Lavender flow...as a result of the flow."

Thats it. Although I think he may have mentioned the talk in other threads too.

 

[Curly green finger's]

OK, nothing better to do with my early morning....

MP was referring to a talk which he had heard.

He wrote, on beesource in a thread titled 'German Black Bees' (Dec 2005):

"Did you get to see Jamie Strange's talk on the local bees of France...in the Lavender region? Quite fascinating".

"His presentation was about local bees in France. He showed that the mellifera bees had a brood rearing spike just before the Lavender flow. It was as if they "knew" that the flow was coming. The Buckfast bees that were brought in by migratory beekeepers had a brood rearing spike on the Lavender flow...as a result of the flow."

Thats it. Although I think he may have mentioned the talk in other threads too.

I tend to think that if bees are in an area for a long time, in some ways they know when time wise to a certain degree when flows are going to start.
Maybe the same with all subspecies of bee, Anecdotal thought on my part maybe?

 

[Wilco]

https://tinyurl.com/tukvnzja
Please note that the figures quoted are as far as I understand for Milankovitch cycles rather than grand solar minimums.

(Edit - problem unfurling url from NASA)

Thank you. Reading that and some other data I'm finding conflicting reports on the magnitude of variation. However, I may be wrong to have doubted you so need to do more reading on the topic-- my apologies if I've caused any offence.