Need to artificially swarm pronto - but can't find the queen

[deb]

The weather has been so awful it's been difficult finding a time when I'm free and it's not raining to look in my two hives.

I was suspicious of one of them - a swarm I got last year, origin unknown - as they seemed 'swarmy'.

Just taken a chance on a break in the weather to have a look and, sure enough, sealed queen cells. A packed hive indicated that they haven't swarmed yet, but it would have been easier to look through them for the queen on a warmer day when more would be out foraging.

As it is, I couldn't find her and it started to rain.

Plan of action is to brush them all down into an empty brood box, then put QX above and let house bees move up onto brood. Then leave bottom box, with queen (presumably) undrawn comb and flying bees where it is and move upper brood, house bees and queen cells to another site (or use snelgrove board).

Any views on this? Is 24 hours enough to leave after brushing down? I know they might still swarm anyway.

deb

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think brushing the bees this way is rather harsh on them. In bad weather the ones that fly may well not be able to get back.
Try pairing the frames and look for the queen on the inside of a pair.
Obviously you need more boxes for this but nuc boxes and two supers would be OK.
Polyhive has a method documented here if you do a search.
BUT
Sealed queen cells usually mean your queen has gone, particularly if there has been a break in the weather.
The hive will look just as busy.

 

[For want of a better word]

Do as you say but after 24 hours move the top brood box full of bees a few feet to one side, make up a new hive with a floor, quilt and lid ... flying bees will return to original hive with old queen.
Then take a couple of frames of brood out and place it in the old hive.
Then it is up to you... leave where it is to superseed ( make sure some eggs were left in the brood) or move to new site.
I was told to remove all queen cells in whatever stage of development from the brood combs as transferring.. and to feed both colonies.

 

[Poly Hive]

My first comment is I detest brushing, it gets very sticky, messy and frankly I think it is cruel to the bees. My opinion only.

Before getting drastic I would have another careful search for her.

Failing that then shake the bees into the lower box and as you say use an excluder to filter them out, with the nurse bees going up to the brood and with luck a nice clump of bees with the queen below.

Or... have you thought of a Taranov swarm?

http://website.lineone.net/~dave.cushman/taranovswm.html

PH

 

[drstitson]

PH - don't most people taranov with the queen safely in a cage?

 

[Poly Hive]

The point of the system is to reverse AS the colony with out having to locate the queen as I understand it.

All the flying bees return to the original site and the non flying nurse bees are with the queen.

Makes a very good demo talking point BTW.


PH

 

[deb]

We shook them down into a bottom box yesterday, and brushed down frames with queen cells on so as not to damage them. Added QX and stacked the brood above. Today, the brood and upper supers were full, but the bottom brood box was relatively empty. It was easy to look through and we couldn't see the queen.

Poly Hive - I noticed you said a 'nice clump of bees with the queen below'. Does this mean that had the queen been there the bees below would have been clustering around her? If so then she definitely wasn't there as they were wandering aimlessly throughout the box. It would be useful to know for future ref if this is what I might expect to see.

Upshot is - if they hadn't already gone (which is likely) they have now. So we left them with one sealed cell and two loaded, unsealed. There were two sealed, but one was at the bottom of the brood box, and so when we tried to put it above there wasn't room for it and it was damaged.

They were in good spirits, despite our manipulations and had stores, brood of all ages and eggs.

Thanks to all for your help.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

If there's a brood frame in the lower box under the q/ex then the queen is most likely to be on there. (Then just lift of the top brood chamber, floor it 3 feet to one side and your A/S is done as flyers will return to mother). If no brood frame, she'll most likely be on the underside of the queen excluder with a bunch of drones that can't get through.

I say 'most likely' because some girls do, some girls don't....

 

[Tom Bick]

We shook them down into a bottom box yesterday, and brushed down frames with queen cells on so as not to damage them. Added QX and stacked the brood above. Today, the brood and upper supers were full, but the bottom brood box was relatively empty. It was easy to look through and we couldn't see the queen.

Poly Hive - I noticed you said a 'nice clump of bees with the queen below'. Does this mean that had the queen been there the bees below would have been clustering around her? If so then she definitely wasn't there as they were wandering aimlessly throughout the box. It would be useful to know for future ref if this is what I might expect to see.

Upshot is - if they hadn't already gone (which is likely) they have now. So we left them with one sealed cell and two loaded, unsealed. There were two sealed, but one was at the bottom of the brood box, and so when we tried to put it above there wasn't room for it and it was damaged.

They were in good spirits, despite our manipulations and had stores, brood of all ages and eggs.

Thanks to all for your help.

It is possible they have swarmed over the last few days?

But I just wonder if she is still there?

Did you get every bee off the frames when you knocked or brushed them into the bottom box some bees can hang on pretty well along with HRH?

 

[rae]

Sealed queen cell means she has probably gone. We lost one in the most atrocious weather over the easter w/e. Must have been a suicide mission, but they still went.

On the flip side, last Saturday we went through a hive with 5 sealed queen cells and the queen all present and correct. The giveaway for us to keep looking was the presence of eggs. If she is still laying, then they are unlikely to be off for a day or two.

However, if you have filtered them through a QX - she is probably not there. A hive can look very full even after a prime swarm.

 

[For want of a better word]

Sealed queen cells usually mean your queen has gone

Yesterday I found a huge marked queen with loads of eggs new larvae and brood in all stages AND SEALED QUEEN CELLS ! ( in the swarm position... 6 big fat ones)
I carried out an AS and removed the SEALED queen cells that are now roasting in my incubator.
Never have seen this before... then this is my only my second season with AMMS
Perhaps Cornish black AMMS do things differently from their European distant cousins ?

 

[YorkshireBees]

Sealed queen cells usually mean your queen has gone

Yesterday I found a huge marked queen with loads of eggs new larvae and brood in all stages AND SEALED QUEEN CELLS ! ( in the swarm position... 6 big fat ones)
I carried out an AS and removed the SEALED queen cells that are now roasting in my incubator.
Never have seen this before... then this is my only my second season with AMMS
Perhaps Cornish black AMMS do things differently from their European distant cousins ?

I too have found that this year, with I believe the exception of one hive, that swarms seem to have been held back by the weather. I have found in several of my hives sealed queen cells (multiple) and a still laying 2011 marked queen. All were hastily AS'd to try and prevent a swarm leaving.

In one particular hive (one of my poly's) I found an un-marked queen, which I believe was a late supercedure last year, being chased around the frame by other bees that appeared to be either trying to sting her or get her to leave the hive!

As she was quite small I removed her anyway.

 

[Teemore]

I would concur that the weather has held off swarm departures: over the last couple of weeks I found a couple of my own queens laying away in colonies where there were sealed queen cells. I went Queen hunting in a friends hive (double brood) on Saturday and found the same thing; fresh eggs and sealed Queen cells. I also found the queen - small but VERY prolific layer and whose mark had been groomed off making her difficult to find in a hive packed with bees.

If colonies get a 48hr windown of good weather there will be a 'few' swarms on the go.