My first bees - via a swarm - now what?

[charlievictorbravo]

I was content to wait for my nuc of local black bees from a local breeder (BIPCo) to be ready in two weeks – my first bees. However, I had a phone call this afternoon from an acquaintance in the village to say there were “millions” of bees flying outside her house and she could not get to her car.
I grabbed a Hedgerow Pete 14x12 nuc that I was using as a bait hive, with a full complement of frames + foundation and drove down there. When I arrived the bees had started to occupy a 3 metre high stone wall, where all except the bottom metre was covered in ivy. The only bees that were “get-at-able” were on the bottom part of the wall.
I placed the nuc on a workmate portable bench beside the wall with a thin piece of wood extending from under the nuc to where the bees were thickest then brushed as many bees as I could into a dustpan and poured these into the top of the nuc. There followed lots of fanning and bees entering via the top and front entrance – some walking the plank from the wall to the front entrance.
I left them till dusk, by which time they had disappeared into the hive then put the roof on, closed the front entrance and wrapped the whole thing in an old sheet and took them home. They’re still in the nuc situated on top of one of my brand new brood boxes with the front entrance open. I thought I’d leave them like that for a day – ‘til tomorrow evening – then move the frames to the brood box and leave them for a day or two to use up their portable stores. So far so good.
Question 1 - I don’t know if I’ve got the queen. When should I start looking for her? Tomorrow in the nuc or the day after in the brood box transfer or in three days time?
Question 2 - If the queen is not there, what can I expect in terms of colony behaviour.
Question 3 – Should you always feed syrup to a swarm after they’ve used their portable stores and if so, is it 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 sugar to water – the hawthorn’s in full blossom here plus there seems to be plenty of local forage for them if the weather stays good.
Question 4 – a lecturer at the local association suggested using icing sugar on a fresh swarm to try to remove any varroa they might have. Is this a “can’t do any harm” situation or is it really effective?
Any help appreciated.
Pictures I attached did not appear - now why's that?

 

[oliver90owner]

They would have de-camped if you had not got the queen. Forget about looking for her for a few days. Seeing eggs in a very few days will confirm a prime swarm.

Question 3: Why? They get along quite nicely in nature. But, as they are in your care, a feed is deemed good to keep them building foundation and to give them a buffer stock - remember one of the inspection points is to ascertain whether they have sufficient stores to keep them going until the next inspection. That would be very doubtful after three days! I don't always feed - it rather depends on the weather and flow and sometimes whether I even know they are there!

1:1 is perfectly adequate at this time of the year. They will be wanting it for brood feeding very shortly if a prime swarm.

Q.4) I have taken all the bees and rolled them in icing sugar (on a warm day) while they only have open brood, running them back into the hive and ten removed the first capped patch of brood to mop up any mites still there. Seemed effective, but dusting the bees with a bit of icing sugar is likely less than an ideal method. A couple or three days with a thymol treatment is as good as any. Some would trickle with oxalic, but I don't use that unless really necessary.

If a good sized swarm they will soon need transferring to a full box - if smaller, I might wait until they have brood, but my nucs are 6 framers so nearly as big as a deep box.

 

[pargyle]

I was content to wait for my nuc of local black bees from a local breeder (BIPCo) to be ready in two weeks – my first bees. However, I had a phone call this afternoon from an acquaintance in the village to say there were “millions” of bees flying outside her house and she could not get to her car.
I grabbed a Hedgerow Pete 14x12 nuc that I was using as a bait hive, with a full complement of frames + foundation and drove down there. When I arrived the bees had started to occupy a 3 metre high stone wall, where all except the bottom metre was covered in ivy. The only bees that were “get-at-able” were on the bottom part of the wall.
I placed the nuc on a workmate portable bench beside the wall with a thin piece of wood extending from under the nuc to where the bees were thickest then brushed as many bees as I could into a dustpan and poured these into the top of the nuc. There followed lots of fanning and bees entering via the top and front entrance – some walking the plank from the wall to the front entrance.
I left them till dusk, by which time they had disappeared into the hive then put the roof on, closed the front entrance and wrapped the whole thing in an old sheet and took them home. They’re still in the nuc situated on top of one of my brand new brood boxes with the front entrance open. I thought I’d leave them like that for a day – ‘til tomorrow evening – then move the frames to the brood box and leave them for a day or two to use up their portable stores. So far so good.
Question 1 - I don’t know if I’ve got the queen. When should I start looking for her? Tomorrow in the nuc or the day after in the brood box transfer or in three days time?
Question 2 - If the queen is not there, what can I expect in terms of colony behaviour.
Question 3 – Should you always feed syrup to a swarm after they’ve used their portable stores and if so, is it 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 sugar to water – the hawthorn’s in full blossom here plus there seems to be plenty of local forage for them if the weather stays good.
Question 4 – a lecturer at the local association suggested using icing sugar on a fresh swarm to try to remove any varroa they might have. Is this a “can’t do any harm” situation or is it really effective?
Any help appreciated.
Pictures I attached did not appear - now why's that?

I'm in the same position as you ... got my swarm yesterday as well !

So:

1. If they have gone into the box the odds are that you've got the queen - may not be a mated one but you've probably got her.

2. They'll probably be pretty ratty but it's unlikely that you haven't got her.

3. Yes ... give them a couple of days to clear their own stores then a good couple of pints (a litre) of 1:1 ... if they guzzle this give them a bit more. They will forage as well with a bit of luck - mine are - but the feed will give them a start.

4. Presumably you are going to do a shook swarm to get them out of the Nuc into your brood box ? If so ... a good dust with icing sugar won't do them any harm in terms of getting some varroa off them - there'll be a few people along shortly to tell you that icing sugar is best left for cakes. So - pays yer money and takes yer choice on that one.

5. Once they are in your brood box leave them to get on with it for a couple of weeks - then it's time to check for eggs/brood to see if your queen is mated and getting on with laying. Still not a disaster if there are no eggs at that stage ... keep your records, check the dates and pray for fine weather.

Best of luck with it ... steep learning curve - keep the books handy !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Question 1) - If they all sauntered into the hive on their own accord, i'd assume the queen was in there, otherwise they'd all just wander out again to find her
Q 2) I'd assume she was there, if she's not, especiially as there is no brood ther, they would be pretty aggressive and there's no real solutin apart from giving them a new queen, but remember they could be led by a virgin.
Q3) if you want them to build up comb pretty fast (and swarms will do that) leave them for a couple of days so they use up all the honey they've caried with them to make wax (thus getting rid of any nasties they may havehad in the honey) then feed them a four pints to a gallon of 1;1 syrup or just leave them get on with it, no big shakes either way as long as the weather isn't too bad
Q4) You must have stumbled into a cake decorating class by mistake - can't do any harm' and that's about it. Give Apiguard or treat with oxalic acid - there's no brood to be adversely affected

 

[pargyle]

Q4) You must have stumbled into a cake decorating class by mistake - can't do any harm' and that's about it. Give Apiguard or treat with oxalic acid - there's no brood to be adversely affected

He he ...Told you so .... You're up late JBM ?

 

[beekeeping4you]

...Give Apiguard or treat with oxalic acid - there's no brood to be adversely affected

...and the queen will not be harmed either!

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Thanks for the early responses Oliver90ownwer and Pargyle.
One query with your reply Pargyle. You assume I'm going to do a shook swarm to get the bees out of my nuc but to be honest, I thought there would be less disturbance if I just transferred the new frames from the new 14x12 nuc to the new 14x12 brood box, having a quick look for Her Majesty while I was at it. Is this not a good idea?
One learning point for other newbees is that dusk is a lot earlier in the evening when you're wearing a full bee suit - the amount of light lost by virtue of the veil is surprising. By 9.45 pm this evening, I had trouble seeing much detail as I finished positioning my nuc.
How do we load photos into our replies? - I attached some photos to my original post but they did not appear.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

He he ...Told you so .... You're up late JBM ?

Was forced to be on duty in the club tonight (rock band, public performance so my name was on the events licence - and the ten pints of guiness behind the bar!)

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for the early responses Oliver90ownwer and Pargyle.
One query with your reply Pargyle. You assume I'm going to do a shook swarm to get the bees out of my nuc but to be honest, I thought there would be less disturbance if I just transferred the new frames from the new 14x12 nuc to the new 14x12 brood box, having a quick look for Her Majesty while I was at it. Is this not a good idea?
One learning point for other newbees is that dusk is a lot earlier in the evening when you're wearing a full bee suit - the amount of light lost by virtue of the veil is surprising. By 9.45 pm this evening, I had trouble seeing much detail as I finished positioning my nuc.
How do we load photos into our replies? - I attached some photos to my original post but they did not appear.

Ahh ... misread your post ... both the nuc and the brood box are yours and matching so no problem just swapping frames over ... dusting as you go ? Depending on how big the swarm is you might want to dummy them down to about 4/5 frames in your brood box to start with .... less room for them to worry about filling and heating.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

dusting as you go ?

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

 

[pargyle]

Was forced to be on duty in the club tonight (rock band, public performance so my name was on the events licence - and the ten pints of guiness behind the bar!)

Good to know that there's still 'grab a granny' nights in Wales then ?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Good to know that there's still 'grab a granny' nights in Wales then ?

What's scary in this area is that a lot of the grannies are a lot younger than me!! And i don't remember the sixities!
Althought i did get grabbed by a granny on Friday - which was nice

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

Was forced to be on duty in the club tonight (rock band, public performance so my name was on the events licence - and the ten pints of guiness behind the bar!)

Know how you feel, jenkinsbrynmair - but in my case it was a lock-in at the local taverna here in Xania, with bouzoukis and raki. Evil stuff.

Forced into it as well.

Dusty.

 

[galileo]

Congratulations CBV - reads like a textbook swarm capture. They're buggers to get out of masonry and they'll have much better prospects in your care.

As above, I'm sure you have a queen in there and if given that they're pretty early in this season, and from your description, in a large number, I'd guess you have a prime swarm with an already mated and raring to go queen. Last year I scraped one of those off the pub wall and put them to a 6 frame nuc of foundation, and found 4 frames drawn + 2 filled with eggs just 4 days later!

Enjoy your bees!

 

[charlievictorbravo]

This evening, I transferred four and a half frames of bees to the brood box. Most frames had drawn comb on them. I've put a fresh frame of foundation either side of the transferred frames with Kingspan spacers outside all - total of 7 frames + 2 spacers.

Despite cake-decorating comments, I think I'll let them play with some icing sugar. The question is, when? I'm inclined to do it sooner rather than later but there is also advice to leave them alone for a while - any thoughts?

 

[pargyle]

This evening, I transferred four and a half frames of bees to the brood box. Most frames had drawn comb on them. I've put a fresh frame of foundation either side of the transferred frames with Kingspan spacers outside all - total of 7 frames + 2 spacers.

Despite cake-decorating comments, I think I'll let them play with some icing sugar. The question is, when? I'm inclined to do it sooner rather than later but there is also advice to leave them alone for a while - any thoughts?

Wow ... you've a good swarm there - going great guns already. If you really want to dust them then it's probably better to do it sooner rather than later then let them get on with it for a couple of weeks.

Have you got a mesh floor ? If so it might be worth just checking for a Varroa count as you then have the knowledge to guide you in your active varroa management ... If you do dust them and have a varroa tray in there you will get an early indication of whether they are infested and you can make some decisions about how/what you are going to do about it.. Before you have brood you have the opportunity to use a number of treatments that you may not wish to use once the queen really gets going. Personally ... and I know it's going to attract some comment - I prefer the less invasive options as far as is practical - but, if you really have an infested colony, you HAVE to do something.

Rab will be along in a minute or two I would think.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I did the "iced bees thing" with icing sugar and have just checked the monitoring board under the mesh floor - 11 varroa mites. The thing is, was this a fair varroa drop test? The icing sugar forced the bees into extra grooming in the process of which varroa were dislodged - in fact most of the varroa on the board were still alive.
My question is, does the varroa drop criterion of 10 to trigger treatment assume that the varroa have reached the end of their natural life and have died or does it not matter whether they've been groomed off by the bees. I've had the bees for three days now so treatment might be becoming urgent before brood arrives. I don't currently possess any varroa treatment chemicals. What might be best to start with?
I'm inclined to do another 24 hour varroa drop test without the icing sugar to muddy the waters.
Any thoughts?

 

[drstitson]

the varroa drop trigger refers to natural drop NOT result of treatment.

 

[itma]

the varroa drop trigger refers to natural drop NOT result of treatment.

Yes, it is population estimation by natural death rate.
Which requires a fairly stable colony situation - which you don't have, as yet.

Best to take the board out (so they can't possibly climb back), and redust both sides of each frame of bees - a thorough dusting using about 100g of sugar.


As you have seen, sugar does 'knock down' some mites.
Its effectiveness will fall whenever there is sealed brood in the hive.
Until then (for the next week?), dust any time you have them open - though you should minimise those occasions!
But with all treatments, although the satisfying thing to see is the effect (drop) what actually matters is the size of the problem that remains after the treatment has been done - which is about the drop rate a month or two in the future.


Swarms don't usually carry many varroa.
But varroa populations can double every 3 or 4 weeks.
So, you have to keep on top of the problem!

 

[oliver90owner]

You were 'something against the wind' IMO and risking abscondment, treating and messing them about without larvae present.

But, never mind, follow the one hive owners club.