Moving nuc to full hive

[Stedic]

I'm going to move my nuc into a full hive today or tomorrow as the population has increased massively and they are running out of space.

They are going from a 14x12 with scabby old frames to a new 14x12 box. Obviously I will take the 6 frames they are currently on as they can't afford to lose any brood or stores right now.

2 questions...

1. I want to use foundation-less frames. Can I put f-less frames either side of their current ones or will be they build brace comb and make a mess? I have a few made up with foundation which I can use if needed, but they are not really in the long term plan. I don't have any spare dummy boards or I guess I could use those.

2. Should I feed them syrup to get them drawing or just let them get on with it with the flow they'll be getting at the moment. No OSR around yet but I've seen nectar in all hives so far. I'm not particularly aiming to get a crop from this hive so am happy for them to take as long as they need to draw out the brood box.

Advice gratefully received!

 

[Poly Hive]

I have to ask why foundationless is in the plan at all?

PH

 

[maddydog]

I have to ask why foundationless is in the plan at all?

PH

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who runs 14x12 without foundation and how they get on?

 

[Stedic]

I have to ask why foundationless is in the plan at all?

PH

I would like to move to a system where I do not have to buy or use foundation.

I do appreciate that I'm likely to get more drone comb, that it was be less stable and will require more wax (and thus less honey initially). For me the benefit is that the bees will draw the comb they want to draw and there is no risk of contamination within the wax. I'm not really sure there is much evidence of contamination and probably less so of subsequent transmission to honey and EVEN LESS SO of issues with human health....but I like the idea all the same

 

[enrico]

I bet that on 14 X 12 frames you will be back to wired foundation within a couple of years. I think it is a mistake
E

 

[Stedic]

I bet that on 14 X 12 frames you will be back to wired foundation within a couple of years. I think it is a mistake
E

That may well be the case.

I'm using the various packs of foundation I have so will have a mixture this year. Any real problems and I can switch back. I'd like to try it though. If I break few combs and cause myself some headaches then at least I'll know not to do it again!

 

[Eyeman]

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who runs 14x12 without foundation and how they get on?

I've been putting in 14x12 foundationless frames for a couple of seasons. I mix foundation / foundationless. My frames are pre-'wired' with fishing line: 4 horizontal lines.
When drawn out they are sturdy and I've even extracted a few.
Need to time it right with any foundationless as it's only too easy to a get a frame full of drone cells. Although some don't seem to mind!
I'll try and dig out some pics to post.

 

[drex]

With my TBH I find that as long as I put an empty bar between two well drawn frames, there is rarely a problem with them bracing or not keeping it straight and true

 

[madasafish]

Foundationless is fine IF you place a frame to be drawn between two drawn frames (so the bees keep straight) AND you wire it first (So it does not collapse if not drawn to the edges and you rotate it and it falls out of the frame), You will have the peace of mind that your wax is only contaminated with local pesticides..so if you are in a rural area that is most treatments ).

 

[linoleum bonypart]

You will get loads of drone cells

 

[maddydog]

I've been putting in 14x12 foundationless frames for a couple of seasons. I mix foundation / foundationless. My frames are pre-'wired' with fishing line: 4 horizontal lines.
When drawn out they are sturdy and I've even extracted a few.
Need to time it right with any foundationless as it's only too easy to a get a frame full of drone cells. Although some don't seem to mind!
I'll try and dig out some pics to post.

I'm guessing a few drawn frames of drone cells is not a bad thing for queen rearing?

Fair play to you for extracting, I'd be dreading the 'dead man's knock'!

 

[maddydog]

, You will have the peace of mind that your wax is only contaminated with local pesticides..so if you are in a rural area that is most treatments ).

'like'

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

A benefit of lots of drone cells is culling them would help with varroa control

 

[Newbeeneil]

I use foundationless on standard frames reinforced with 2 stainless steel wires. The bees produce the drone come they need which is often in the lower third which is nice and easy for culling or varroa counting.

 

[maddydog]

It would bother me to let the bees do what they want then massacre the results? Seems a waste on at least a couple of levels.

 

[Stedic]

You will have the peace of mind that your wax is only contaminated with local pesticides..so if you are in a rural area that is most treatments ).

Quite - made me smile. I do realise that I'm being slightly ridiculous but I'm comfortable with that!

As it happens I made up the hive with foundation on account of picking up the wrong box when leaving the house yesterday morning. Bees were pretty well behaved for the transfer which I did as quickly as possible. So long as I didn't manage to drop the queen off a frame or something ridiculous all should be well. 26 degrees today and seems to be a nectar flow so hopefully they will settle down without too many issues.

I'll experiment with foundationless during the season and see how I get on.

 

[madasafish]

Quite - made me smile. I do realise that I'm being slightly ridiculous but I'm comfortable with that!

..

I'll experiment with foundationless during the season and see how I get on.

Good luck with it : please take pictures of your successes (you won't have any failures will you? )

 

[Stedic]

Good luck with it : please take pictures of your successes (you won't have any failures will you? )

I suspect there may be one or two failures...although I rather suspect I'll be too busy swearing at myself to take photos. I will however post a full confession. The post shall be entitled "I should have listened...(again)".

 

[madasafish]

I suspect there may be one or two failures...although I rather suspect I'll be too busy swearing at myself to take photos. I will however post a full confession. The post shall be entitled "I should have listened...(again)".

Been there, scars to prove it..

 

[Angularity]

I converted from conventional to 14x12 (this was in the days when each hive had loads of bees, sadly not the case this Spring). I took the existing frames with drawn comb, extended the frame using the bottom bars (cut one into four equal parts, put them end-on into the frame sides, then put the other between them as a bottom bar, to take the weight). I also tried some with a strong wire frame suspended below the woodwork.

In every case the comb below what was already there was drone comb. I more or less just shrugged my shoulders; bees make drones, they may as well put them somewhere.