Mouldy/stained brood box

[BernardBlack]

Checked one hive while trickling apibioxal.

• Bottom brood box was abandoned, some old brood left which has gone mouldy, as well as around the frames.

• Middle brood box - some bees and stores.

• Top super - a lot of bees and stores.

Some faecal stains outside the hive at times over last couple weeks, some stains in hive too, mainly bottom abandoned box.

Lots of bees on floor too. I suppose that’s expected in winter though.

I’m assuming bottom box abandoned because not enough frames were drawn out (was an AF) in summer/autumn, so not possible for bees to cluster properly, so they moved upwards.

Question is, should I remove the bottom abandoned box? And might doing that reduce the faecal staining?

 

[philipm]

You seem to have a lot of room for the bees to keep warm perhaps remove the bottom box.

 

[jfullerton]

You seem to have a lot of room for the bees to keep warm perhaps remove the bottom box.

I agree...way too much space for the bees to heat and so putting them under stress....one brood box is plenty for overwintering here...

 

[Angularity]

I agree...way too much space for the bees to heat and so putting them under stress....one brood box is plenty for overwintering here...

Plus lots of insulation.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

(second year beek here)

Yes I'd remove the bottom box. Wax moth will probably get to work if not enough bees. Happened to one of my small colonies last year.

I had some die-off after OA dribble but not many.

Not sure what 'AF' is?

They should have cleared out any dead if they are anything like healthy. The staining sounds like nosema but no experience of this. I think the treatment is a syrup with an additive but they're not going to be able to take syrup over winter.

Anyone?

. . . . . Ben

 

[Millet]

No point in doing anything at this time of the year...you will do more harm than good pulling everything to bits..a 50mm piece of insulation in the roof is the best thing you can do and pray that they have stores in the top box where it will be at its warmest..all them type of manipulations should have been done prior to feeding or around the time of feeding whether they needed it or not..please tell us though that you have took the Queen excluder out..

 

[BernardBlack]

I agree...way too much space for the bees to heat and so putting them under stress....one brood box is plenty for overwintering here...

Hmm, yes... good point.

The bottom brood box wasn’t totally drawn out (as I did an A.S, and had queen laying issues) so I see now why the box was left abandoned. I should have left one full brood box in autumn.

Would the nosema/staining be a sign of over stressed bees having to work very hard to stay warm?

 

[BernardBlack]

(second year beek here)

Yes I'd remove the bottom box. Wax moth will probably get to work if not enough bees. Happened to one of my small colonies last year.

I had some die-off after OA dribble but not many.

Not sure what 'AF' is?

They should have cleared out any dead if they are anything like healthy. The staining sounds like nosema but no experience of this. I think the treatment is a syrup with an additive but they're not going to be able to take syrup over winter.

Anyone?

. . . . . Ben

Sorry that should be Artificial Swarm (AS).

Yes I thought that myself about the liquid treatment not being viable in winter. Is there an alternative treatment for winter nosema?

 

[BernardBlack]

No point in doing anything at this time of the year...you will do more harm than good pulling everything to bits..a 50mm piece of insulation in the roof is the best thing you can do and pray that they have stores in the top box where it will be at its warmest..all them type of manipulations should have been done prior to feeding or around the time of feeding whether they needed it or not..please tell us though that you have took the Queen excluder out..

I’m not sure what specific manipulations you’re referring to ?

I don’t use a QE.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

I'd go with Millet's suggestion. They've suffered enough. Keep your fingers crossed.

 

[Swarm]

Bernard,
Don't worry about the bottom box now, they have moved up to usable comb and stores. It sounds like you gave them a bit much to do, a bit late in the season.
They have stores which is good, the poo stains may or may not be signs of nosema. Best to leave them be until Spring and assess them then.

 

[Millet]

I’m not sure what specific manipulations you’re referring to ?

Only used and seen Double brood/brood + half or a nadired super.. never have i seen or felt the need too go into winter on double brood with a super stuck on top.. not having a pop at you just saying..

 

[user 6228]

From a thermal point of view boxes below help keep some(a little) extra heat in. less so in wooden kit . What really counts is what is at the top.

regards
Derek

 

[BernardBlack]

Only used and seen Double brood/brood + half or a nadired super.. never have i seen or felt the need too go into winter on double brood with a super stuck on top.. not having a pop at you just saying..

No no, it’s fine. Just going through it myself in my head I sort of realised my mistake.

Went into winter last year on double brood, but they were all drawn out or full of stores. I’ll know for next time.

Sure you’re never done learning at this craic!

 

[Millet]

Personally and it is totally upto you what you do.. but i would leave well alone till mid April if they where mine..in my location and work on any problems then..
Good luck ..

 

[Etton]

I can’t see why having an empty BB below top BB (double brood) with OMF is less insulation
than a single BB which is open to the elements under the OMF. Surely the top BB in double brood is given more protection/insulation by the below drawn BB?

 

[Hivemaker.]

What really counts is what is at the top.

An open mesh roof for even better ventilation.

 

[For want of a better word]

An open mesh roof for even better ventilation.

I am thinking of buying shares in Bryant & May with the( BBKA) recommendations being proposed to beginners from our area's resident self proclaimed Master Beekeeper!!!

( NOTE TO BEGINNERS... DO NOT LIFT CROWNBOARDS WITH MATCHSTICKS AS IT CAUSES A TERRIFIC DRAUGHT
THAT BEES DO NOT LIKE VERY MUCH )​

#could this be the first mention on matchsticks in 2019 on this forum?

 

[TooBee...]

From a thermal point of view boxes below help keep some(a little) extra heat in. less so in wooden kit . What really counts is what is at the top.

regards
Derek

Yes,

I couldn't see the problem of having an extra box below the main brood box;

1. it keeps the bees / cluster away from the cold OMF or entrance,
2 it helps create a 'dead air space' beneath the brood* / cluster area,
3. warmer air rises, so the warm air will gather in the super and the top of the top brood box, the bees will not try and heat the bottom brood box.

* (I say brood because my bees are bringing in pollen therefore are presumably starting to or at least thinking of rearing brood)

My personal preference would be to leave them well alone, disturbing them during winter can't be good, a perspex crown board helps with any Non-Opening inspections, feed holes in it will allow you to put fondant on without disturbing them.

 

[MartinL]

Insulation could be an issue here, helping the spores to develop, (especially if we don't get a good cold spell).

I'd not be poking them around though, maybe make sure they have little more that top insulation & be ready to inspect in March when everything starts to warm up.

Also be wary of cross contamination when you handle the dodgy frames, Box & floor?