Mother of God Hive system

[Jowlpost]

Will do .... this season and last .. no wasps and no robbing in the apiary as once they learn they cant get in they go elsewhere.

It must be fun to change the size of your entrance when they have propolised it up, knelt down with your hive tool with a face full of guard bees, that why lots of people don't bother and suffer from the bottom entrance. We have up to 50 colonies so that is not an option for us.

The theory always works but in needs to be practical. Likeise the mesh floor underboard, people forget about it or is is so poor quality they leave it out.

 

[Repwoc]

It must be fun to change the size of your entrance when they have propolised it up, knelt down with your hive tool with a face full of guard bees,

I think I have a different kind of bees.

 

[pargyle]

I struggle with the whole concept of a botom entrance. No where in the wild do you see ferral colonies with a bottom entrance .. why do we force bees to live in a 2 story detached house with a permanently open front door that feeds cold air this time of year straight up though the nursery. It makes no sense, lets waxmoth, wasps and mice in and the bees can't defend it. Yes you can close it up but what a performance on a national so most people dont bother and wonder why the queen ends up in the super..

But an entrance at the bottom of the hive does not feed cold air in .. as long as you have no holes at the top of the hive then basic physics will tell you that warm air rises... cold air falls - so the top third of the brood box is always warm (and YES .. I have proved it with temperature & humidity measurements years ago). If you have an open mesh floor and a top entrance or holes in the crown board then I would agree you are introducing a chimney which WILL introduce cold air into the hive as a thermal column will draw the cold air in as the warm air escapes from the top.

If you are going to have a top entrance (and I have used these on my long hive) you need a periscope so that the warm air is not lost through the entrance; Like this ...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

and holes drilled in every box is going to have warm air flooding out from everywhere.

 

[Erichalfbee]

and holes drilled in every box is going to have warm air flooding out from everywhere.

Certainly will in the U.K.

 

[Pembroke]

I'll do a deal with you - you show me definitive proof that

And I'll find a way of uploading the video of the Ty Uchaf oak tree colony.
I can't recall Tom Seeley stating anywhere that in his extensive research of tree colonies (Have you read 'Honeybee Democracy?) that all the entrances were at the top, and I'm sure, when he was asked a similar question at the UBKA convention last February, he said entrances were usually at the bottom - in fact the bait hives he made based on his findings all had bottom entrances and the Cornell University publication written by Seeley, Morse and Nowogrodski (publication 187 - Bait Hives for Honeybees) stipulate the entrance should be near the bottom.
Be interesting if you could share your references?

Sorry bit of a blurry picture and I don't want to start any arguments but here is a tree with a nest inside it and an entrance quite clear to see near the bottom. Click image to enlarge.

 

[BWBeeKeeper]

Sorry bit of a blurry picture and I don't want to start any arguments but here is a tree with a nest inside it and an entrance quite clear to see near the bottom. Click image to enlarge.

View attachment 21405

I'll try to get a picture of one of our local wild colonies as that entrance is also right at the Botton, probably about 1 or 2 inches from the ground. I think the bees just make do with what they can find and adapt accordingly.

 

[Jowlpost]

Sorry bit of a blurry picture and I don't want to start any arguments but here is a tree with a nest inside it and an entrance quite clear to see near the bottom. Click image to enlarge.

View attachment 21405

Hi .. thanks for that .. I’m not arguing with anyone. Having read Langstroth’s book to find out the thinking behind his patent and I can see very little to show he spent much time researching or justifying the “bottom entrance”. Seems to me he should have limited his patent to the removeable frames. As expected your picture shows a small round hole not a 12" wide bottom entrance that can't be defended.

Other considerations are that the thickness of the tree trunk is a lot better insulator than 19mm wall of a hive (especially if the tree is dead) , which in itself is a lot better insulator than 3mm correx board.

While "good beekeepers" will close up Langstroth's "bottom entrance" and open it up as we humans think is required, this established colony clearly demonstrates the bees are in control of the ventilation and the access to the hive. Surely it makes more sense to give them a set up that they know how to manage 24/7 rather than think we know better, when we happen to be in the apiary?

Perhaps the one conclusion so far from those who have engaged in the discussion is that the ventilation effects of the `Langstroth bottom entrance" are exacerbated by the vents in the roof of some hives like National. If there is anyone who needs proof I am sure we can all send in pictures of the propylated vent mesh. (note in West Virginia and a lot of the USA Langstroth hives have no ventilation in the roof)

 

[Repwoc]

@Jowlpost I'm not sure you are saying anything new that hasn't been discussed before on this forum.

Regarding hive entrances - is your issue with the entrance being at the bottom of the hive (ie below the brood nest) or its size? As has already been pointed out, much research has been done on the location and size of entrance holes, albeit perhaps not by Langstroth himself. See for instance "Honeybee Democracy", T.D.Seeley, 2010. Clearly, as you say, unmanaged bees have to work with what they have or can find when searching out a new home. They don't have the capability (without moving to a different home) to convert their front door from a small hole in winter to a wide entrance in summer, so we don't know what they would choose to do if they could. I guess they go for the small hole because that's what's best when wasps and other predators are a nuisance in the autumn and to reduce drafts when it's cold and windy in the winter. Would they open it up during the summer to accommodate the huge increase in traffic and to allow greater ventilation when drying nectar? Nobody knows. Everything they do is governed by their DNA "programming" and natural selection which has favoured certain behaviours over others. Humans have the ability to think and make decisions based on observation and knowledge and some of us think that a larger entrance in summer, when the weather is warmer and wasps are less problematic, is a good thing. My bees certainly take advantage of the full width. I reduce the entrances later in the season when I think the benefits are outweighed by the drawbacks, and even further if the bees need a still smaller entrance to defend.

Regarding the insulative properties of timber, I think everyone is aware that thin wood is poorer at retaining heat than thick wood. Most if not all contributors to this forum would advocate the addition of extra insulation (eg expanded polystyrene at least or better PIR such as Kingspan or Celotex) in / on the hive roof. Timber hive bodies are more difficult to insulate, but some do add hive cosies during the winter months. Many have adopted the use of polystyrene hives which have superior thermal properties to timber ones. If you want to discuss these topics in more detail, perhaps you could contact Derek Mitchell who has studied and researched hive thermal properties and posts here from time to time.

I think if you search this forum you'll find that roof ventilation has been thoroughly debunked.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The vents in the roof of a National hive are neither here nor there because your crownboard holes are closed and often have a slab of insulation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

 

[john w]

Pembroke, is it possible for you to take a measurement of the cell size? Looking at the picture, at least 7/8 cells are clearly visible. Would it be possible to do a quick count of as many cells that you can measure and provide the total length? It would be interesting to see if they are escapees from a local hive or other. Thanks

 

[MuswellMetro]

But an entrance at the bottom of the hive does not feed cold air in .. as long as you have no holes at the top of the hive then basic physics will tell you that warm air rises... cold air falls - so the top third of the brood box is always warm (and YES .. I have proved it with temperature & humidity measurements years ago). If you have an open mesh floor and a top entrance or holes in the crown board then I would agree you are introducing a chimney which WILL introduce cold air into the hive as a thermal column will draw the cold air in as the warm air escapes from the top.

If you are going to have a top entrance (and I have used these on my long hive) you need a periscope so that the warm air is not lost through the entrance; Like this ...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/99514363@N06/albums/72157644091488819

on another thread he says he lost 31 out of 44 hives last winter, i helped look after my cousin's 30 10 frame Smith hives in Wallingford and we only lost one and that was because a rat chewed it way in ,ask yourself why he lost 31 hives