Making new supers

[sharonh]

Sharonh,
If you try swienty or MB boxes, they take 10 frames so are lighter to lift when full, plus they have good hand holds and are easy to lift.
paynes have a stupid design, with a central bar precisely where you would like to take hold. The grips either side are inadequate, only deep enough for the tips of your fingers. This alone can actually make a full super feel heavier than a wooden one.
Something to consider if you decide to try one.

Thanks for that. Will have a look and decide on one.
Regards
Sharon

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks for that. Will have a look and decide on one.
Regards
Sharon

The lips on the MB hives squash bees because you can't slide the boxes together.

 

[sharonh]

The lips on the MB hives squash bees because you can't slide the boxes together.

Ok that's not good. I'll look at the swienty one I think.

 

[Swarm]

Ok that's not good. I'll look at the swienty one I think.

Remember swienty are top bee space, the runners that supposedly convert them to bottom bee space are great, but there is no recess cut into the bottom of the box so it sits directly on top of the frame lugs. Chuck the runners and use them TBS as they were intended, best poly option IMO.

 

[YorkshireBees]

It can be a very significant difference, like 10% when full.

Some polys have standard *external* dimensions, in which case they are smaller inside, with space for fewer frames - which makes their contents about 10% lighter before considering the small difference in the actual box weights.

Sharonh,
If you try swienty or MB boxes, they take 10 frames so are lighter to lift when full, ...

Yes ofc most of the Poly boxes take less frames and therefore you can say they are lighter except I use castellations in my wood supers with 10 frames in a box anyway!
I have a few supers with 11 space castellations just to get foundation drawn and a few with 9 space for really fat combs but use 10 in general and therefore have the same number of frames as say the MB super on spacers.

I tried those MB hives as I was new to poly and they were top space as my wooden kit is. I hate those lips so they have all been removed. I see you have Swienty as well. They are much much better.

Yes I started my trial with 2 x MB hives and now have 4 of them. I bought 1 x Swienty earlier this year to try a different design.


I agree the lip on the MB is not the best design although it does add a certain extra stability to hives / boxes when they are being moved.

I can't really assess the Swienty design much yet as I haven't completed a full season with it. It certainly seems a decent, well thought out design.

I do like TBS but all of my current wooden hives are BBS so that makes them incompatible with the new Poly kit (If I use it as TBS).

The swienty super in the picture was converted to BBS by adding cut down castellations (an experiment) as I prefer castellations in the supers to cut down on the amount of work during extraction + the frames cannot move about during transportation.

 

[itma]

Yes ofc most of the Poly boxes take less frames and therefore you can say they are lighter except I use castellations in my wood supers with 10 frames in a box anyway!
I have a few supers with 11 space castellations just to get foundation drawn and a few with 9 space for really fat combs but use 10 in general and therefore have the same number of frames as say the MB super on spacers.

…

No, you have missed the point.

On the same spacing (ie with the same comb fatness) you get fewer frames into those 'small' poly boxes.

There is less volume inside the boxes.
Less room for honey.
Hence lighter when full.
Simples!

It is not about the weight of the frames (and adjusting the frame spacing to get more or fewer in) - it is about the boxes having a smaller capacity.
10 frames closely spaced in an MB poly have about 10% less capacity than 10 frames with fatter combs on standard 10-slot castellations in a wooden national box.



Where the small-style poly nationals should shine is this similar 10% reduction in brood box weight for those running double brood.
It is 10% of a larger weight - a bigger kilo saving per box for broods than with supers.




I'd agree about the poor handholds on the (full size inside) Paynes boxes.
However, for anyone wanting full-size-inside poly National boxes, with conventional handholds, they should take a look at Bee Hive Supplies. Its just that BHS are distinctly more expensive than Paynes (though arguably you may get what you pay for!) and they never seem to have a Sale!

 

[Swarm]

On the same spacing (ie with the same comb fatness) you get fewer frames into those 'small' poly boxes.

It is not about the weight of the frames (and adjusting the frame spacing to get more or fewer in) - it is about the boxes having a smaller capacity.
10 frames closely spaced in an MB poly have about 10% less capacity than 10 frames with fatter combs on standard 10-slot castellations in a wooden national box.

Precisely, you will not get eleven frames in a swienty box (can't speak for MB) they simply won't fit. I use wooden supers (10 slot castellations also) so nothing has changed with the crop and they are cheaper than poly supers. Swienty is an excellent double brood choice though, unless you have super prolific queens.

 

[YorkshireBees]

No, you have missed the point.

On the same spacing (ie with the same comb fatness) you get fewer frames into those 'small' poly boxes.

There is less volume inside the boxes.
Less room for honey.
Hence lighter when full.
Simples!

It is not about the weight of the frames (and adjusting the frame spacing to get more or fewer in) - it is about the boxes having a smaller capacity.
10 frames closely spaced in an MB poly have about 10% less capacity than 10 frames with fatter combs on standard 10-slot castellations in a wooden national box.

Where the small-style poly nationals should shine is this similar 10% reduction in brood box weight for those running double brood.
It is 10% of a larger weight - a bigger kilo saving per box for broods than with supers.

Ok I see your point and yes I agree in general.
Just out of curiosity I looked at my records (I weigh each and every super before and after extraction).
On the 24th May I extracted and the 2 Poly (MB) Supers (10 frames on plastic spacers)
Weight before 15.10 / 13.35 Kg
Weight after 5.70 / 5.45 Kg
Approx yield 9.40 / 7.90 Kg (minus cappings)

During the same extraction the wooden hive next to it gave the following figures (10 frame castellation).
Weight before 18.15 / 19.20 Kg
Weight after 8.00 / 8.10 Kg
Yield 10.15 / 11.10 Kg (minus cappings)

So yes in general the smaller capacity of the supers = less honey = less weight although they still feel like they weigh a ton when you have to carry them any distance to the car!

Where the small-style poly nationals should shine is this similar 10% reduction in brood box weight for those running double brood.
It is 10% of a larger weight - a bigger kilo saving per box for broods than with supers.

Yes this is a major benefit especially as I use the Demaree method of swarm prevention that often involves moving a full BB to chest height and trying to carefully place it on top!

 

[mintmoth]

No, you have missed the point.

On the same spacing (ie with the same comb fatness) you get fewer frames into those 'small' poly boxes.

There is less volume inside the boxes.
Less room for honey.
Hence lighter when full.
Simples!

It is not about the weight of the frames (and adjusting the frame spacing to get more or fewer in) - it is about the boxes having a smaller capacity.
10 frames closely spaced in an MB poly have about 10% less capacity than 10 frames with fatter combs on standard 10-slot castellations in a wooden national box.

I looked at the BHS site a while ago to compare weight with wooden hives, 'cos I was hoping they were lighter. They say:-

"The high density material means that the parts of the beehive are heavier than expected, only slightly lighter than wooden hives, with some designs the walls are 64mm/2.5” thick and roof has 100mm/4” of insulation, which means that it alone weighs 3.5kg."

So as you say, itma, it's the reduced internal volume of poly hives that makes them lighter.

 

[itma]

I looked at the BHS site a while ago to compare weight with wooden hives, 'cos I was hoping they were lighter. They say:-

"The high density material means that the parts of the beehive are heavier than expected, only slightly lighter than wooden hives, with some designs the walls are 64mm/2.5” thick and roof has 100mm/4” of insulation, which means that it alone weighs 3.5kg."

So as you say, itma, it's the reduced internal volume of poly hives that makes them lighter.

First point, the BHS are full size internal. And among the densest (heaviest) plastics.

Secondly, YorkshireBees has been good enough to provide some actual data (above).
Simplifying by adding the weights together for each pair, we get -
2 (small) poly supers full 28.45 kg, and empty (with 10 frames each) 11.15
2 wood supers full 37.35 kg, and empty (with 10 frames each) 16.10

So, on average, the small polys are each 2.5kg lighter when empty, but almost 4.5kg lighter when full.