Maisie's Poly sale.

[Poly Hive]

Typo.

Alighting boards. Suffering from a numb finger which is making some of the typing a bit tricky.

Oddly not many trees with or with or without hollows come equipped with alighting boards.

PH

 

[maddydog]

Typo.

Alighting boards. Suffering from a numb finger which is making some of the typing a bit tricky.

Oddly not many trees with or with or without hollows come equipped with alighting boards.

PH

Gotcha

I agree, I've got both Payne's polys and Maisie's and the doorstep doesn't seem necessary. Sometimes I wonder whether the manufacturers pander to the anthropomorphism of some hobby beeks.

I wouldn't mind trying the BS nuc but the temptation of the Maisie sale was too great

 

[Curley]

Oddly not many trees with or with or without hollows come equipped with alighting boards.

PH

Fair point but humans don't come with specs and I find mine invaluable.

I like seeing the little baggers landing and wandering in - might be for my benefit - but then so is a lot of beekeeping. If they weren't helpful they wouldn't use them would they? They certainly seem to use them on my hives.

Each to their own.

 

[Into the lions den]

.....but this is compatible with maisie's?? See #20 (post 20), or have I misread something?

Having been in the poly game as a vendor in the past I think that at last time I counted there were already 5 variants for the National, and BS makes 6. Apart from this compatibility between BS and Maisemore I don't think ANY of the others are/were. They cant all make money.

This deep fragmentation of the market in hive types, and variants within types, and the individuals desired wrinkles on top of that, makes everything expensive here and we are considered very eccentric by folk in other countries.

The Paynes boxes are perfectly good, but so are the other types (cannot understand folk hacking out the feeder...if it needs more than 6 frames it needs a full hive or an extension). The more pieces the more the moulds cost and the higher the prices. Simplicity saves money and keeps things standard, which allows you to shop around for equipment.........but then from the vendors point of view non compatibility is something of a strategy....so plaudits to Dan and Tristan on making the BS one compatible with another type and thus being prepared to be open to competition.

 

[BMH]

While I agree with respect to the same product not being compatible raises production costs and complicates things for the end user, I see the BS nucs as something entirely different.

They have improved on other nucs in several key areas (wall thickness, material density) and more importantly have two key distinguishing features over competitors (the fondant plug and the split design/dual entrance).

So they cant really be compared to other nucs that dont have these distinguishing features?

I also agree that's its good they have made them compatible with Maisies even it is somewhat limits their potential market share, it means they may be able to adopt a nice chunk of a highly competitive market as people who are bought into maisies can use the BS bodies alongside brood boxes (i dont quite get the point of a super for a nuc?)

 

[Erichalfbee]

(i dont quite get the point of a super for a nuc?)

I have a colony overwintering in a double Paynes 14x12 on 14 frames. I might leave them there and super them.

 

[BMH]

Would they not just be better of being moved to a full hive?

if they have filled 14x 14x12 frames thats a pretty big brood area.

Just doesnt seem cost effective and if they went all year you would need 5 supers for 30 frames!

It would become so top heavy

 

[Erichalfbee]

Would they not just be better of being moved to a full hive?

if they have filled 14x 14x12 frames thats a pretty big brood area.

Just doesnt seem cost effective and if they went all year you would need 5 supers for 30 frames!

I don't expect them to fill the whole two boxes with brood, maybe they might put some honey in there for themselves?

 

[BMH]

In this instance, I guess there is a use, but I see nucs as a tool to build up small colonies/make splits etc. Not a final home for a colony or a mechanism for honey production.

I would have thought remaining in a nuc will stunt the colonies growth over the medium term

 

[Into the lions den]

They have improved on other nucs in several key areas (wall thickness, material density)

These two qualities work against eachother in some ways...the denser the material the less its insulation value. there is a golden spot in the 80 to 120 g/l density. Softer and the bees chew it. Harder just uses extra material without good cause and raises price.

and more importantly have two key distinguishing features over competitors (the fondant plug and the split design/dual entrance).

Neither of which *I* see as of any value whatsoever. Dual/multiple boxes are fine...IF neither/none fail....but also make you very busy supervising them. Its bad enough in 6 frame and we need to resplit them at least once during the season, 3 frame is full to bursting with one proper bar of brood hatching out. Single free standing units are more flexible in use....been there got the tshirt...ripped out the divisions in multiples or even burnt them (these were subdivided wooden hives into 2/3/4 sections, either 4x2frame, 3x3frame or 2x5frame.

So they cant really be compared to other nucs that dont have these distinguishing features?

The more features some want and others don't sets us apart from the world. If we had a standard design we all used stuff would be half the price or even less. In this country we like to amend the gear to meet the individuality of the beeks preferred systems, other places they use a system to fit the gear. I would happily use ANY of these models, but only one to keep it all the same in my unit.


(i dont quite get the point of a super for a nuc?)

tbh neither do I, if it needs promoted it needs promoted, although even into Sept we make up nucs to use the latest of the queens from the mating unit and usually take them from already full nucs. (we have a system that works by taking one bar of bees and brood from 3 different nucs and putting them in together, then introduce a queen and feed them....works great) Others I know swear by the extension boxes (Paynes ones), and one guy even got at least one extension box of heather honey from each by taking his nucs to the moors in August. if you don't have full hives to spare, don't want to make even more nucs up, then I can see how that can fit in with the system. Anecdotally one nuc producer tells me that they get them going in spring with extensions on, then sell HALF of the nuc as a full nuc, put a queen in the other half, and then have a second one to sell or develop onwards.

..

 

[BMH]

Interesting as that is exactly on what I am planning on doing.

Build the strong nucs up on pollen sub in Feb and then add an additional brood box once strong enough. Then aim to fill both brood boxes (12 frames) by April/May when the first queens become available.

Then sell half with the queen and requeen the remaining half or let them develop their own queen.

I like the flexibility that additional brood boxes add.

 

[BMH]

..

BS are 120g/l so hopefully they dont sacrifice insulation over hardness.

I think the fondant plug is a really neat idea. And resolves an issue I have with my existing maisies.

How do you go about feeding fondant if required over winter?

I also have a load of split wooden brood boxes and havent had the best time with them. I put that down to the fact the divisions are fixed (and my woodworking skills arent the best!)

I personally like the flexibility of a twin system for raising queens on standard frames and adding frames to create a nuc for sale. I agree there is a risk of colonies failing.

Its neat and allows a quick build up.

I can entirely see where you are coming from though. With a large number of colonies it would add time and risk to an already challenging cycle.

My scenario would be as follows:

1 nuc fed to be strong and expand into a double brood.

Once 12 frames are full.

Split into two x dual nucs and each given a cell.

Within a month i could have 4 colonies assuming all mate.

You could probably do that at least twice in a season turning one nuc into 8 but crucially using only 4 nucs as opposed to 8. You can see how scaled up the savings would be quite significant.

 

[Finman]

BS are 120g/l so hopefully they dont sacrifice insulation over hardness.

.

you see from wall that the wall has centre window which is perhaps 2 cm thick and edges of are 4 cm thivk. The nuc has even wall and propably 4 cm.

But my first poly boxes had same construction and bees have wintered without problems inside 2 cm walls.



Here is old Swedish Nacka box, and its wall is 2 cm thick

http://sbio.mamutweb.com/Resource/File/159/569_Nacka_Sarg_Langstroth_1_1_thumb.JPG

.

 

[Bates]

Ah. Will you be at the Spring Convention?

Yes we are booked at Stoneleigh Tradex, Welsh Convention (pending confirmation) & Harper Adams Spring Convention

These two qualities work against each other in some ways...the denser the material the less its insulation value. there is a golden spot in the 80 to 120 g/l density. Softer and the bees chew it. Harder just uses extra material without good cause and raises price.

Totally agree and this is the reason we choose to stay within these boundaries. Lyson (Abelo) boxes are being produced over 160g/l which you loose the thermal properties. The method they are using to produce the boxes is also very slow and labour intensive, just the fact they are made in Poland allows it to be cheaper & cheaper tooling costs.

 

[Beefriendly]

Lyson (Abelo) boxes are being produced over 160g/l which you loose the thermal properties.

My bees would totally disagree with you there. -4oC this morning and bees very loosely clustered with a very active top layer as viewed under perspex crown boards in both Abelo poly hives and Paynes.
If their is an issue with thermal properties of different density poly hives this should be documented with facts not speculated.

 

[local_beekeeper]

My bees would totally disagree with you there. -4oC this morning and bees very loosely clustered with a very active top layer as viewed under perspex crown boards in both Abelo poly hives and Paynes.
If their is an issue with thermal properties of different density poly hives this should be documented with facts not speculated.

 

[Into the lions den]

My bees would totally disagree with you there. -4oC this morning and bees very loosely clustered with a very active top layer as viewed under perspex crown boards in both Abelo poly hives and Paynes.
If their is an issue with thermal properties of different density poly hives this should be documented with facts not speculated.

Its not speculation. Its well documented....but I aint going to go digging for it. we have a forum expert who has all that detail at his fingertips.

However....the fact there is a difference with the insulation value dropping off as the density rises does not mean that higher densities are not superior to wood. However it is a material that is priced per kilo in its premoulded state and to go more dense than the optimum...which is around 100g/l...is just not needed.

The product of several eastern EU factories is cast rather than moulded, a slower process as Bates referred to, and almost needs the higher densities to achieve proper bonding. Cast product seems harder to the touch and indeed is, but that's a skin. They are more brittle if damaged. Have seen them here with real problems if they get broken, with loose beads falling out of the core making them harder to repair. To be fair though I did get a batch of defective roofs from Sweden on year that were moulded and they too had loose beads to fall out of the skin was broken.

Not fond of seeing bees in loose clusters at this time of year...poly or not. Ours are almost all very tight, which is as it should be. The loose ones I have marked as possibly/probably with problems. Elevated levels of activity in cold weather is not a good sign and a messy end may not be far away. No idea just HOW active you mean in -4C as I have not seen it, but here we mark active ones as duds and are usually, but not invariably, correct.

 

[Beefriendly]

I've been dying to play with my Xmas infra red digital thermometer...so have just conducted a little experiment to see how fast heat is lost from an Abelo poly hive and a Paynes poly hive.
I just happen to have sitting outside my bee shed a double brood Abelo and double brood Paynes hives with roofs and with the brood boxes full of drawn frame.
Outside Temperature is 1C, remove roof and took IR temp across top frames it was 1.5C in Paynes and 1.6C in the Abelo.
Now in my bee shed I have lots of supers (Paynes and Abelo) with drawn comb....they are showing 5C across the top of the frames in sdie the shed which is also around 5C.
I added one super of frames on top of the double brood boxes and put the roof back on, strapped down and went and made a cup of tea....
2 hours later went back and removed roofs and see what temps frames in the super now are (they were 5C).
In the Paynes hive with the low density poly they now read 2.5C....In the high density poly Abelo hive they now read 3.5C....
(okay I know the n number is low...but I only have the 2 bloody hives empty of bees at the moment)

Seems clear cut, but perhaps not as clear cut....the Abelo roof seem slightly thicker and covers some of the side of the super, whereas the Paynes only covers a couple of inches, so this may contribute to the retained heat, also the open mesh floor in the Abelo is about 1/3 less surface area than the Paynes so this may have been a factor in reducing the heat loss from the Abelo super frames..

Regardless of comparative thermal properties of high vs medium density poly hives, seems the Abelo hive has it where it counts!

 

[Beefriendly]

HOW active you mean in -4C as I have not seen it, but here we mark active ones as duds and are usually, but not invariably, correct.

By activity I mean gentle movement of bees in the outer cluster which is exactly what I have come to expect under most cluster conditions as the inner bees move outwards and the outer inwards... not skipping and running around the hive.

 

[Millet]

The product of several eastern EU factories is cast rather than moulded, a slower process as Bates referred to, and almost needs the higher densities to achieve proper bonding. Cast product seems harder to the touch and indeed is, but that's a skin. They are more brittle if damaged. Have seen them here with real problems if they get broken, with loose beads falling out of the core making them harder to repair. To be fair though I did get a batch of defective roofs from Sweden on year that were moulded and they too had loose beads to fall out of the skin was broken.

.

I see you mention the core as in it being hollow like a cavity wall of a double skinned house, i have several Abelo brood boxes and that is not the case with mine, they are solid and dense all the way through, infact i have one here that needed repairing after it had a piece gouged out of it accidentally, not one bead of polystyrene came out of the hole as it was uniform all the way through.
A good buy imo even more so because they will accommodate all the National equipment i am slowly piling up.
The Abelo roof are excellent also...