Liebefelder estimation

[B+.]

Its a good idea to have an estimate of the number of bees in a colony going into winter. There is a method for doing this which is used a lot in Germany / Switzerland but not so much over here. Its called the Liebefelder estimation method (you'd need to use google translate but its explained here https://translate.googleusercontent...ang=de&usg=ALkJrhjv66p1W9exG0McEnLA_pjYstEMJA
I wonder how many people are even aware of this

 

[Michael Palmer]

Its a good idea to have an estimate of the number of bees in a colony going into winter.

Why?

 

[B+.]

Why?

As a gauge of how well a colony overwinters or whether there are enough bees to meet the threshold.
Particularly in cold climates, such as yours, you will get a feel for how big a colony needs to be to survive...how many bees...how much honey / pollen /etc.
The link I provided has a nice little facility that gives you practice estimating the number of bees on the surface of a comb. This is something that beginners usually don't get until its too late.
If you estimate the bees covering the comb going into winter and again in the spring, you have a number that can be used to compare colonies for their over wintering ability
This can also be used to help people understand the rate at which a colony is developing and anticipate the overcrowding that can lead to swarming

 

[Hivemaker.]

you will get a feel for how big a colony needs to be to survive...how many bees...

In the small wintering colonies it is about a mugful of bees, few hundred, these over winter with complete success providing the queen is good.

 

[For want of a better word]

In the small wintering colonies it is about a mugful of bees, few hundred, these over winter with complete success providing the queen is good.

Last winter I got a dozen colonies in the tiny Swi-Bine type polly mating nucs, with an eke to provide deep comb... four placed together on top of a standard National to give insulation to the colony below and warmth to the 4 little nucs above... insulated lid on top.
Needs to be said that these were Native Cornish Black Amms... possibly more used to the local Temperate Maritime climate we enjoy/suffer here in the relatively sub tropical Tamar Valley!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

In the small wintering colonies it is about a mugful of bees, few hundred, these over winter with complete success providing the queen is good.

How would you differentiate between those that survived with ...say above 90% of their population alive in the spring, or above 75%? The point is that you have to know what you started with before winter set in.
Colonies that over winter well are probably those you would look at for propogation.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The point is that you have to know what you started with before winter set in.

Yes, they go into winter with a mugful of bees, and in spring they are strong, so are then split into two or three more nucs, survival is very often 100%... as long as the queens are good.

This is all i need to know.

 

[B+.]

This is all i need to know.

I see. Perhaps you have a more sheltered location than the rest of us. I think you started about a month before I did this year

 

[Michael Palmer]

Yes, they go into winter with a mugful of bees, and in spring they are strong, so are then split into two or three more nucs, survival is very often 100%... as long as the queens are good.

This is all i need to know.

Same here HM.

 

[enrico]

Sometimes I wonder if we don't all get too technical!
I just keep my bees. I feed if they are hungry, I try to do a bit of swarm control. Most years they give me a bit of honey for the home that I give them and none of us stress too much and we are all generally happy.
I don't bother counting them!
E

 

[B+.]

Same here HM.

The "winter resistence" test I do is the difference between the number of bees in mid October and mid March (willow bloom time when brood rearing starts again). Colonies are scored:
1 point <= 30%
2 points <= 70%
3 points <= 90%
4 points > 90%

Of course, you'll get a normal distribution but its the high scoring groups of colonies (sister queens) that you can select overwintering ability from

I would have thought this was particularly valuable to you Michael?

This trait is linked to the spring development trait but, as you might expect, weak colonies will often build up slower because the brood would chill if they advanced earlier without enough workers to keep the brood warm

 

[B+.]

Sometimes I wonder if we don't all get too technical!
I just keep my bees. I feed if they are hungry, I try to do a bit of swarm control. Most years they give me a bit of honey for the home that I give them and none of us stress too much and we are all generally happy.
I don't bother counting them!
E

This is why mainland Europe is so far ahead of the English speaking countries. From what I've seen the german speaking countries are light-years ahead of us in bee breeding

 

[enrico]

Ahead in what way! We fiddle too much!
E

 

[B+.]

Ahead in what way! We fiddle too much!
E

We don't assess. We don't select and improve. We are so convinced that our bees are the same as bees all over the world that we are happy to work with mongrel stock that are no good to man nor beast....just my opinion, for what its worth.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Every year here the colonies that have been on the heather moors are very weak, (almost feeble) on return, compared to the colonies that have not, often only a quarter the strength, yet these heather colonies are usually the strongest and most advanced colonies come spring.

 

[B+.]

Every year here the colonies that have been on the heather moors are very weak, (almost feeble) on return, compared to the colonies that have not, often only a quarter the strength, yet these heather colonies are usually the strongest and most advanced colonies come spring.

No doubt they wear themselves out on the heather and the population rebounds when you feed them upon their return.

 

[Hivemaker.]

No doubt they wear themselves out on the heather and the population rebounds when you feed them upon their return.

Just been bringing them back in the last few days, they have already fed themselves on heather honey, they don't have much time to rebound and compare in strength with those colonies that did not go to the moors, and they don't, plus don't forget the colonies that remained behind will also be getting stronger themselves, it is in the spring the heather going colonies are more advanced, i think it has more to do with the heather honey.

So going by this numbers thing should we be shaking a load of bees out of the strong colonies that remained behind, in October, to weaken them to the same degree as the heather going bees, so as to make them stronger in spring as well?

 

[madasafish]

We don't assess. We don't select and improve. We are so convinced that our bees are the same as bees all over the world that we are happy to work with mongrel stock that are no good to man nor beast....just my opinion, for what its worth.

Most of the bees I have seen - that belong to others (not all).. are such that I would requeen immediately on grounds of ill temper.

 

[B+.]

Just been bringing them back in the last few days, they have already fed themselves on heather honey, they don't have much time to rebound and compare in strength with those colonies that did not go to the moors, and they don't, plus don't forget the colonies that remained behind will also be getting stronger themselves, it is in the spring the heather going colonies are more advanced, i think it has more to do with the heather honey.

So going by this numbers thing should we be shaking a load of bees out of the strong colonies that remained behind, in October, to weaken them to the same degree as the heather going bees, so as to make them stronger in spring as well?

In post 11, I indicated a scoring system which is used in BeeBreed to identify those that over-winter well. If you have colonies that are depleted on the moors but regain their strength, you have no need to add bees. They have done that themselves. Those colonies would score 4 since they emerge in the spring with more than 90% of what they had in mid October.
The point was to identify those groups of sister queens that performed better than others.
Do you keep track of the sister queen groups and evaluate them as a group?

 

[B+.]

Most of the bees I have seen - that belong to others (not all).. are such that I would requeen immediately on grounds of ill temper.

I have to agree with you. My statement was in response to an earlier question though