Laying workers

[maddydog]

Hi, I inherited a colony at the beginning of June suffering badly from laying workers. I think the traditional solution is to shake the bees out and divide the stores around the other hives. Being a naïve beginner who's interest in keeping bees is scientific/biological I've been attempting to stop the laying workers by using open brood from a strong colony.

I've been successful in the sense that no multiple eggs/drone brood in workers cells have been seen for a couple of weeks, however, the colony appeared to only attempt (unsuccessfully) to rear it's own queen on one occasion around 5-6 weeks ago. I'm wondering what's the best strategy for getting the colony through the winter?

- There are around 4 frames of bees
- 6 frames of stores

Two options I can think of, I'd appreciate any input

1) Attempt to requeen with a bought mated queen? If so, how long have I got given the time needed to find a queen/introduce/settling?
2) Give up. Shake the bees out at a distance from the apiary and allow the foragers to drift to the other hive on site.

Option 2: is a simple matter of removing the hive completely and the foragers will naturally drift (and be accepted) in the other hive in the apiary or is there more to it? Interestingly, I expect the majority of the bees in the failed hive will now be full sisters of the remaining hive where I've been getting the brood from for the last two months!

 

[itma]

Brood pheromones should shut off the laying workers.

I have heard of putting a laying worker colony above a queenright colony (separated by mesh and with their own entrance - a "swarm board") so that the pheromones could re-establish normality, before either combining or re-queening.
Haven't needed to do it myself though.

When have you given them open brood?

/ I'm wondering if you have an un(successfully) mated Q running around in your no-eggs hive ...

 

[maddydog]

That's interesting, I'd had the same thought myself about effectively combining the two colonies with pheromone while not allowing the laying workers to kill the queen. I've got two supers on the queen+ colony, would I place the laying worker colony on top of those and if so, will the pheromones spread that far?

I started putting eggs/brood in the queen-less colony from early June.

 

[maddydog]

You may be right about a queen being present. Obviously I haven't spotted her but I've noticed a change in colony behaviour from very aggressive to merely grumpy over the last six weeks or so. I'll have a very thorough look through on Saturday.
Am I too late in the year to re-queen (mated) if I find and dispose of the failed queen?

 

[madasafish]

Not too late to requeen. Takes about 2 days (or less) from intro to her starting to lay.

 

[maddydog]

Thought I‘d give quick update.
I've been working away and today was the first chance to check the problem hive. Firstly their behaviour is much better; very little aggression and much more ordered within the hive and on entering/exiting the hive. Still no queen or eggs though. There are around 5 frames of bees and the same in stores so just need a laying queen! No queen cells, just a couple of play cups.
Interestingly varroa could be clearly seen on a number of workers. This from a hive with a daily count of <1. The other hive has a daily drop of 6 but i didn't see a single one on an adult. I'm assuming the lack of brood forces the mites to exist on adults?

 

[dickndoris]

At this time of year and the weather about to turn, tomorrow, I would tip them out and let them find new homes especially with laying workers. The chances are they won't make it through Autumn as there are no young bees never mind winter. I had a nuc the same not so long ago which I gave up on. They were all gone in 30 mins! Give them a good smoke first so they are nice and full. I opened some sealed stores also to make it easier. They are usually welcome if they are full of honey in most colonies.

 

[Travelator]

What do you want to do with the comb from the queenless colony?

If it's in good condition with plenty of stores, consider uniting the two colonies via the newspaper method and overwintering on double brood.

If you would prefer to store or recycle the comb over winter, shake them out.

 

[maddydog]

Thanks, shake them out and store the comb i think. I'm confident (based on their behaviour) there is a duff/virgin q in there and i don't want to risk uniting

 

[Rio]

I found the same issue with laying workers in one of the hives earlier in the week.
After some deliberation, I considered it too late in the year to bring on a new queen so I opted to tip the bees out and distribute their stores across two weaker hives.
Uniting with another hive at this stage in the year is probably of limited value given the age of the bees, and the onset of autumn.

 

[maddydog]

Had one final look through the laying worker hive today. No sign of Q or eggs so gave them a good smoke then left them for about 20 mins to fill up and shook them out in front of the other hive. Approx 75% of them immediately started to cluster on the slab that their old home was seated on. Had a search through the cluster and no sign of a queen. Left them to it and returned 2 hours later to find maybe 50% of them still there. Is this normal? They don't even seem to be trying to get into the hive 3 feet away?

 

[oliver90owner]

Yes. There was another recent thread on this. Of course they go back to their known position. Think 3 feet, 3 mile rule.

 

[richardbees]

yes that's normal - and why it's suggested you do the shaking-out in nice weather,
eventually most of the bees will find their way and be accepted into a new hive....

 

[Sandbee79]

laying worker?

not worth the effort nothing will work.
they will not accept a new queen as they believe they've already got one they will kill her.
You could try the old dump them at a distance as it is said that the one's laying can't fly back. Then try re queening.

I would remove hive to a distance throw em out and let them find they're own way into other hives.

simple is best. Sorry.

 

[pargyle]

not worth the effort nothing will work.
they will not accept a new queen as they believe they've already got one they will kill her.
You could try the old dump them at a distance as it is said that the one's laying can't fly back. Then try re queening.

I would remove hive to a distance throw em out and let them find they're own way into other hives.

simple is best. Sorry.

That will be Post #11 ... OP took your advice !!

 

[maddydog]

Thanks.

Had a look this morning and around 25% of the original colony have spent a chilly night hanging off the slab. I've moved the surrogate hive to around 2feet from the cluster so I'm giving them every chance. might be academic anyway as I've probably wrecked the surrogate hive by unintentional starving so may need to unite with my remaining hive. 3 hives to 1 and I'm not into winter yet!!

 

[richardbees]

This rainy weather isn't helping!

...but at least you'll be going into winter with a viable colony!