Late inspections and winter stores

[JamezF]

Once I've taken the supers off the hives for extraction my preference is not to pull the brood frames out again until the next year unless there's something that looks wrong from the outside. I'll feed based on whether the hives are light or not, but generally I don't take the frames out to visually check stores.

Last winter however I got caught out. A colony died over the winter despite being very heavy. When I opened the hive in spring I found that the reason it was so heavy was that the brood chamber frames were absolutely stuffed with pollen.

Am I wrong to just leave the bees get on with what they need to do for the winter and should I do some sort of late inspection, or am I just unlucky in having a colony that decided it wanted to collect huge amounts of pollen and not provide itself with enough food for the winter?

James

 

[oliver90owner]

Am I wrong

Yes. Fixed ideas like that are wrong. Try and be flexible. Rules like that are rediculous. This autumn should have clearly demonstrated that.

Your mistake, if it was one last winter should have told you something. Some people were removing supers, for extraction, at about the end of July.

 

[Arfermo]

Last winter however I got caught out. A colony died over the winter despite being very heavy. When I opened the hive in spring I found that the reason it was so heavy was that the brood chamber frames were absolutely stuffed with pollen.

If you only lost one out of the 20 that you claim to own your proportionate loss was less than most imho. I lost one through starvation too but it was not from lack of stores so much as crystallisation and cold making the combs go solid. Hefted it was very heavy but like you I didn't open up due to the cold. A sad loss that couldn't be helped.

 

[MandF]

I thought/assumed bees were ok clustering on and feeding off crystallised stores?

Ivy honey crystallises and most people leave all the ivy income for the bees to overwinter on?

 

[JamezF]

If you only lost one out of the 20 that you claim to own your proportionate loss was less than most imho. I lost one through starvation too but it was not from lack of stores so much as crystallisation and cold making the combs go solid. Hefted it was very heavy but like you I didn't open up due to the cold. A sad loss that couldn't be helped.

Twelve of those twenty are only recently acquired. This is my first winter with so many.

James

 

[JamezF]

Am I wrong

Yes. Fixed ideas like that are wrong. Try and be flexible. Rules like that are rediculous. This autumn should have clearly demonstrated that.

Your mistake, if it was one last winter should have told you something. Some people were removing supers, for extraction, at about the end of July.

I don't have a problem admitting a mistake at all. Such is the nature of life, not just beekeeping. I really don't understand why, but that particular colony just seemed to decide it was going to collect a huge amount of (ivy, I guess) pollen very late in the year. In retrospect, I should have realised that the hive being unusually heavy in mid-winter was a sign that something was wrong and attempted to deal with it at that point.

However, let's turn things around a bit and ask a slightly different question (or two)?

Once you're into preparations for over-wintering (feeding, varroa treatment etc.) what observations might start ringing alarm bells that a heavy hive with plenty of apparent foraging activity may not actually contain sufficient usable stores for a colony to survive the winter and that an inspection might be warranted? Or would you habitually inspect brood frames during/after autumn feeding?

James

 

[newportbuzz]

mabey keeping records of how much winter feed each hive took could have solved this problem.
also putting in on the inspection tray for a few days as you are feeding will show wax scales droped as the cells were capped over. this shows they are storing and not using.

 

[Poly Hive]

When you run numbers you are not, and probably unless very lucky are never again going to have 100% success with over wintering, sad but only too true.

I would suggest you adopt a belt and braces approach.

Feed and treat do all the usual stuff and then later in the winter, say late December or early Jan put on fondant.

In spring if there is much or any left you can recycle it into spring syrup.

As for granulated stores they are useful to a point but only to a point as the bees suck out the moisture around the crystals and discard same to the floor.

Which is why many feed as well as play with the ivy as it is not nor is OSR by any means an ideal winter feed.

PH

 

[MandF]

So, as both my hives are chocka with crystallised stores, are we saying that because they only suck the moisture and discard the crystals that they will get through this much quicker than "normal" stores?

In other words, my fix here is to monitor the hive weights carefully and be prepared with fondant. Rather than just remove the granulated stores and feed syrup now?

If they get thru the granulated stuff quickly it suits me as I dont want any of it left by next spring!

 

[rae]

Fondant is good for belt and braces. I've built some 1.5" ekes fill with celotex apart from a take away container sized hole in the middle. Easy to take the roof off, check that there is fondant remaining - if not, replace.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

JamezF

If your colony had pollen stores and also honey stores - so the bees thought they had a good balance of stores and you then removed the honey late in the year they had no ability to replace the lost carbs. When did you remove the honey??? (They may just be bees that got it wrong).

For my girls I remove honey supers in July or early August dependant on weather and forage. Anything that comes in after that is theirs. I treat for varroa in August - going into September if needed. They are fed after the supers come off if required. However Supers go on when empty - 1 per hive. There is then plenty of time for the bees to get fed and comfortable before winter comes. Supers go under at the beginning of October or thereabouts; queen excluders removed. I have not seen any problems with ivy honey - even when it does set like slabs of concrete in the super or brood chamber. I might lift one brood frame to have a quick peek in early October but they are not inspected from early September unless I already know there's something going on that needs attention. Any hive that is lively will lose its queen to be combined with another.

In the apiary I have a black dish the size of a big dinner plate with a clear upturned water container on it. This warms up in winter sun to make water consumption easier if the bees need to dilute the granulated ivy. They don't have to bring back freezing cold water to the hive.

At the end of March or early April at the first quick inspection the supers are removed before the queen has a chance to lay in them. They are usually empty.

If on the first inspection there are signs of bad girls, the queen is removed very soon after and the colony united with another which gives a big colony very early on. One this Spring *exploded* when I took the crown board off. No stings, but the queen went and it was 2 months before they settled down - early June. One week they were up and flying all over the place. Next week; the old bees had gone. I have the luxury of enough hives to be able to unite but I don't want ratty bees and don't want their drones in the apiary either.

The only bees I fed this spring were ones in hives smaller than a standard sized hive.

 

[oliver90owner]

Or would you habitually inspect brood frames during/after autumn feeding? (my underlining)

You have once again failed to understand what I said earlier. You don't just do things 'habitually'. There needs to be a reason and an opportunity to inspect. Not all the frames in the brood box need be disturbed to assess the amount of stores yet required in the colonies.

This autumn was so different to the weather expected that it would not have really affected any colony detrimentally, to have had a quick check of what was in the brood box, during that period of very warm weather. I repeat, 'habitual' has no part in my beekeeping agenda. Indeed some have experienced very late swarms, due to the boxes being already crammed and followed by the recent, but now passed by, balmy weather.

Think about it; opportunity, reason for checking - for assessing any redeemable errors re stores. Do it. No affect on the well-being of the bees and may highlight any odd problem.

RAB