Lanstroth V National hive

[Chorlton Honey Bees]

are People swaying towards Lanstroth instead of useing National double brood chambers these days am i thinking Langstroth is about the same as a broad and a half

 

[herefordshirehoney]

Personally id say langstroth over national any day, so far not disappointed with mine (be it it takes a few frames less as I went the poly route).

 

[Ross]

14x12 or commercial are about the same as a brood and a half and are still compatible with most of your existing kit, and the kit of most beekeepers. Only around 5% of hives in the UK are Langstroth, although they tend to be grouped into areas where they are popular.

 

[beekeeping4you]

14x12 or commercial are about the same as a brood and a half and are still compatible with most of your existing kit...

Hi Ross,
I see that you are a beginner and would like to ask where did you read that or who told you so?

I'm a Langstroth beekeeper and imho they are not really compatible, this specific Nat/Com compatibility or better 'interchangeability' is always a poor compromise, and you or the bees will have to pay a price for that...

Smith, Langstroth, Dadant, why not one of these?

Regards
Reiner

 

[user 6228]

From a thermal point of viewof increasing the effectiveness of insulation increasing height is better increasing depth or width to increase volume.

This is because the surface area of top strata of the hive count more than the surface area of the low strata in the consideration of heat loss....

A langstroth has a bigger surface area for the top 10 litres of volume than a natonal. Thus you need a bigger colony or increased levels of insulation to have the same hive temperature in the top 10 litres for the same level of stress on the bees.

If you wish the bees only to have a shelter and not gain any significant benefit from insulating properties i.e. the bees can only heat the cluster, then you should increase the depth and width.

 

[drstitson]

LS similar in volume and comb area to national.

if you want to avoid brood and a half you must go 14x12 (easiest), commercial or dadant

recent popularity of LS is down to price/availability of poly hives given that so many other countries use LS.

 

[Insy]

In the Ted Hooper Book it states

Effective comb are each side (sq in)

National brood 93
Commercial brood 130
Langstroth brood 127
Dadant brood 159
National Brood + Super 148

 

[Finman]

.
In Finland many professional use 3 medium instead of douple langstroth.
It saves back bone.

When you have a big colony, it stands everything, even different beekeeping styles.

.

 

[Swarm]

There must be a reason why Langstroth is the most popular hive worldwide?

 

[itma]

In the Ted Hooper Book it states

Effective comb are each side (sq in)

National brood 93
Commercial brood 130
Langstroth brood 127
Dadant brood 159
National Brood + Super 148

However, you have to factor in the number of frames before you get to Brood Box capacity. And some would take off the outside of the outside frames (so drop 1 frame) for real brood capacity. (Not so with poly, though!)



Anywhere outside the British Isles (and possibly Aquitaine or Dordogne-shire), you'd be very ill-advised to start with one of the National family.
However, within this sceptered isle (and its extensions), you'd be a bit odd to start with anything else.

 

[Insy]

That's true my wooden hive the queen refuses to lay in the 2 outer frames so i have only 9 frames of brood.

Where as a poly I'm assuming its wall to wall with brood, so technically we also have to take into consideration whether the person in question is talking wooden hives or polystyrene hives or both.

 

[itma]

are People swaying towards Lanstroth instead of useing National double brood chambers these days am i thinking Langstroth is about the same as a broad and a half

No.
As drstitson says, the conventional BB is about the same brood area as a National.

If people choose Langstroth, its because they want to be able to source internationally and want top bee space. And cheapness.

When people realise their Nat brood and a half is a pain, they can then pretty easily move to 14x12. Or even commercial.

 

[oliver90owner]

There must be a reason why Langstroth is the most popular hive worldwide?

Maybe because it was the size of a champagne crate?

Or maybe because, individually, the US had more beekeepers/hives than the rest of the world (individually) when the framed hive was introduced, and soon after, and so henceforth until the present day?

 

[Insy]

Oops my mistake .

Tbh last year i used national + super or double national brood and i found it a pain looking through so many frames for queen+queen cells.

So the reason for me would be to make inspection faster/easier so less frames to inspect making it less disturbance/less time consuming + to avoid the odd queen cell being missed.

Also depends on preference people tend to stick to nationals/commercials cause that's where their assoc use so its easier to acquire parts/hives etc.

 

[masterBK]

If you prefer to work your hives from the rear then Langstroth is not for you (unless you like twisting and back trouble)

 

[alanf]

14x12 or commercial are about the same as a brood and a half and are still compatible with most of your existing kit, and the kit of most beekeepers. Only around 5% of hives in the UK are Langstroth, although they tend to be grouped into areas where they are popular.

That looks like a quote, where's the 5% figure from?

Could be an interesting source but I suspect it's no more than a top of the head guess. Given the disputed number of all hives in the UK and many of the larger operators importing direct, I don't know how you'd get anywhere near an accurate estimate.

 

[Into the lions den]

Personally id say langstroth over national any day, so far not disappointed with mine (be it it takes a few frames less as I went the poly route).

Langstroth poly hives have the same internal dimensions as the wooden ones and take the same number of frames.

The 'devil in the detail' with them is that some makers try to get clever and manufacture them with variants to make them incompatible, or not fully compatible, with other brands, so you have to be very careful.

 

[Finman]

.
I cannot see any idea to compare which is better.

However the prices in UK are very national and from outboard you may get hal price hive parts.
That is amazing.

We may argue in Finland which is better, wooden or plastic? but wooden hives has 3-fold price.

Few years ago it was said that you cannot produce "ecological honey" in plastic boxes.
Women beekeepers said that they cannot handle heavy wooden boxes. Now plastic boxes are allowes in "ecological" beekeeping.


We have not such burden like "national". Money talks here. beekeeping as an industry is too heavy to lay "national games".

We talk about "home land honey". But customers bye nowadays what ever.

.

 

[Haughton Honey]

For your reference:


National Beehive Dimensions and statistics
External dimension - 18 1/8" square
Brood body depth - 8 7/8"
14” x 12” brood body depth - 12 ½"
Super depth - 5 7/8"
The brood area is 2200 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 50,000
Bottom Bee Space

Frames sizes
Top Bars – 17” long
Bottom bars – 14” long
Deep side bars – 8 ½” long
14” x12” side bars – 12” long
Shallow side bars – 5 ½” long

Foundation sizes
Deep – 13 7/16” x 8”
14 x 12” – 13 7/16” x 11 ½”
Shallow – 13 7/16” x 5”

How many frames in each box:
11 Hoffman (self-spacing) frames in either a brood body or super. Although it is possible to fit in 12 frames, it is easier for manipulation to use 11 frames and a dummy board.
11 frames on narrow ends in the brood body
10 Manley frames in the super
9 or 10 frames on castellated spacers in the super
8 frames on wide ends in the super


Langstroth Beehive Dimensions and statistics
External dimension – 20” x 16 ¼”
Brood body depth – 9 7/16”
Jumbo brood body depth 11 ¾””
Super depth - 5 ¾”
The brood area is 2750 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 61,400
Top Bee Space

Frames sizes.
Top Bars – 19” long
Bottom bars – 17 9/16” long
Deep side bars – 9 1/8” long
Jumbo side bars – 11 ¼” long
Shallow side bars – 5 3/8” long

Foundation sizes
Deep – 16 ¾” 8 5/8”
Jumbo – 16 ¾” x 10 ¾”
Shallow – 16 ¾” x 4 7/8”

How many frames in each box:
10 Hoffman frames in either a brood body or super.
8 Manley frames in the super.


Commercial Beehive Dimensions and statistics
External dimension – 18 5/16” square
Brood body depth – 10 ½”
Super depth – 6 3/8”
The brood area is 3000 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 70,500
Bottom Bee Space

Frames sizes.
Top Bars – 17 ¼” long
Bottom bars – 16” long
Deep side bars – 10” long
Shallow side bars – 6” long

Foundation sizes
Deep – 15 7/16” x 9 ½”
Shallow – 15 7/16” x 5 ½”

How many frames in each box:
11 Hoffman frames in either a brood body or super.
10 Manley frames in the super.


Smith Beehive Dimensions and statistics
External dimension – 16 3/8” x 18 ¼”
Brood body depth - 8 7/8”
14” x 12” brood body depth - 12 ½”
Super depth - 5 7/8”
The brood area is 2200 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 50,000
Top Bee Space

Frames sizes.
Top Bars – 15 ½”” long
Bottom bars – 14” long
Deep side bars – 8 ½” long
14” x12” side bars – 12” long
Shallow side bars – 5 ½” long Foundation sizes
Deep – 13 7/16” x 8”
14 x 12” – 13 7/16” x 11 ½”
Shallow – 13 7/16” x 5”

How many frames in each box:
11 Hoffman (self-spacing) frames in either a brood body or super. Although it is possible to fit in 12 frames, it is easier for manipulation to use 11 frames and a dummy board.
10 Manley frames in the super.


Dadant Beehive Dimensions and statistics
External dimension – 20” x18 ½”
Brood body depth – 11 ¾”
Super depth – 6 5/8”
The brood area is 3740 sq. ins.
No. of worker cells 85,000
Top Bee Space

Frames sizes.
Top Bars – 19” long
Bottom bars – 17 9/16” long
Deep side bars – 11 ¼” long
Shallow side bars – 6 ¼” long

Foundation sizes
Deep – 16 ¾” x 10 ¾”
Shallow – 16 ¾” x 5 ¾”

How many frames in each box:
11 Hoffman frames in either a brood body or super.
10 Manley frames in the super.

 

[Finman]

.
There are several langstroth dimensions in Europe.

Even old and new poly Langstroth do not fit together.

You should know a little bit.