Keeping swarms just breeds swarmy bees (?)

[Eyeman]

I agree. Master swarm control and swarming becomes much less of a problem. Work with the bees.

But it's a pain in the ar** when the A/S goes belly-up!
Despite being 'well prepared' this year 50% of my WSII, Padgen or 'taking a nuc' swarm controls had problems this year. Mainly delays in the bees requeening the split, not accepting my carefully nurtured thoroughbred queen or raising more QC's.
This has had a significant impact on the potential honey harvest from those hives.
Give me a Apiary where only 25% of colonies swarm each year rather than my 50+%.

 

[Chris B]

I did a talk about 3 years ago for a BKA that supplied all beginners with swarms. I asked about their subsequent swarming experience and in a room of about 20 people all of them said all their bees swarm every year without fail.

The problem is beekeepers are inadvertently favouring those bees with the highest tendency to swarm. Natural selection would not allow these extremes to prosper - many of these bees would naturally starve over winter through swarming too late and too small castes. Swarms are not inherently bad but excessive swarming does need to be bred out.

 

[B+.]

Swarms are not inherently bad but excessive swarming does need to be bred out.

None of mine have swarmed. The colonies still have the same marked queens they started with.
When queens are so easy to make, why is it that people think they last forever?

 

[Fusion_power]

Swarming is the source of many of the problems with poor production. Efforts to control swarming take time and energy away from other tasks. No matter how you slice this, the end result is that bees with strong swarming tendency cost more to maintain. If your goal is to have more than just bees in hives, maybe to get a bit of honey now and then, breeding away from swarming tendency is one of the more important steps to achieve that goal.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I "took out" my swarmiest strain, resulting obviously in a hopelessly Q- hive. Caused a lot of trouble until I eventually got it stabilized with - ahem - a caught swarm. But I'd do it again and now my question is whether to keep the new Q; she's doing well but I can't have her at the head of a production colony next year so think I'll switch her with a this-year Q and see how she does in a nuc.

 

[B+.]

she's doing well but I can't have her at the head of a production colony next year so think I'll switch her with a this-year Q and see how she does in a nuc.

Lets think this through:
You have a queen from a swarm - what do you know about it? Nothing except she is currently laying well and building her colony.
If it is so critical that she doesn't lead a production unit next year, you have to replace her. With what? When?
My answer to these questions would be to buy a queen from a reputable source and change her asap so she goes into winter with her own brood

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Lets think this through:
You have a queen from a swarm - what do you know about it? Nothing except she is currently laying well and building her colony.
If it is so critical that she doesn't lead a production unit next year, you have to replace her. With what? When?
My answer to these questions would be to buy a queen from a reputable source and change her asap so she goes into winter with her own brood

I also know she is almost certainly not a this-year queen and, as per the OP, she has swarmed (maybe not "her fault" as discussed above). So she might be below her best laying brood in May for July foraging; hard to be sure.

Her likely replacement would be a daughter of my best Q. That daughter emerged on 31 May and has burst her 3-frame mating nuc. Extraordinary performance. It is in the process (second nuc brood box) of being split for a sister who will emerge on 31 July as one of 14 grafts taken two days ago.

The incoming Q seems like a good'un though, so I might put her in a nuc to build up and see how she does next year. Swap her with the better-known quantity, essentially.

 

[B+.]

Her likely replacement would be a daughter of my best Q. That daughter emerged on 31 May and has burst her 3-frame mating nuc. Extraordinary performance. It is in the process (second nuc brood box) of being split for a sister who will emerge on 31 July as one of 14 grafts taken two days ago.

The incoming Q seems like a good'un though, so I might put her in a nuc to build up and see how she does next year. Swap her with the better-known quantity, essentially.

I'm not sure why you've kept her in a 3-frame nuc (Unless you are short of equipment?). I wouldn't say that is big enough to assess her performance properly (she will only have 1-2 frames of brood and the bees that are foraging now could still be from the shook swarm/split you made to accommodate the new queen). This is the sort of performance I look for in a potential breeder queen (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744).

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I'm not sure why you've kept her in a 3-frame nuc (Unless you are short of equipment?). I wouldn't say that is big enough to assess her performance properly (she will only have 1-2 frames of brood and the bees that are foraging now could still be from the shook swarm/split you made to accommodate the new queen). This is the sort of performance I look for in a potential breeder queen (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3744).

When I say three-frame nuc I mean it's a six frame nuc originally made up with three frames brood and stores and three of drawn comb, now bursting. And she won't automatically be a breeder Q. "The Mother" (her mum), who is, is on six National brood boxes plus having donated three nucs as above (she's the daughter of a Pete Little Q). @MuswellMetro has been posting his stack too; I was going to wait so see if I could legitimately pop on another box this weekend before joining in

 

[Millet]

When I say three-frame nuc I mean it's a six frame nuc originally made up with three frames brood and stores and three of drawn comb, now bursting. And she won't automatically be a breeder Q. "The Mother" (her mum), who is, is on six National brood boxes plus having donated three nucs as above (she's the daughter of a Pete Little Q). @MuswellMetro has been posting his stack too; I was going to wait so see if I could legitimately pop on another box this weekend before joining in

That must be some queen if it is filling them..

 

[B+.]

"The Mother" (her mum), who is, is on six National brood boxes plus having donated three nucs as above (she's the daughter of a Pete Little Q).

OK. I understand what you are doing now.
You probably aren't being fair to the mother by stealing her brood. 6 National deeps is only about the same comb area as 4 Langstroth deeps, but, if you are stealing brood for nucs, I can see why her yield has been capped.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

OK. I understand what you are doing now.
You probably aren't being fair to the mother by stealing her brood. 6 National deeps is only about the same comb area as 4 Langstroth deeps, but, if you are stealing brood for nucs, I can see why her yield has been capped.

4.8

I had a disastrous start to the season for various reasons (still very new at this) and had little choice eg if I did not want to spread Nosema.

 

[BeeJuice]

I did a talk about 3 years ago for a BKA that supplied all beginners with swarms. I asked about their subsequent swarming experience and in a room of about 20 people all of them said all their bees swarm every year without fail.

The problem is beekeepers are inadvertently favouring those bees with the highest tendency to swarm. Natural selection would not allow these extremes to prosper - many of these bees would naturally starve over winter through swarming too late and too small castes. Swarms are not inherently bad but excessive swarming does need to be bred out.

Amother example of bad breeding policy is with the breeding of Pheasants. The practice used to be (and occasionally still is) to catch up all the females at the end of the season and breed from them. These are the birds that hadn't been shot in the shooting season.

The practice ended when keepers realised that the reason they avoided being shot was most often because they were very reluctant to fly towards the guns. They would hide or fly low. That might be a smart instinct for the pheasant's survival but provides no 'sport' for those shooting. Game keepers now routinely buy in new stock to avoid breeding birds shy of flying.

 

[midnight sun]

I did a talk about 3 years ago for a BKA that supplied all beginners with swarms. I asked about their subsequent swarming experience and in a room of about 20 people all of them said all their bees swarm every year without fail.

The problem is beekeepers are inadvertently favouring those bees with the highest tendency to swarm. Natural selection would not allow these extremes to prosper - many of these bees would naturally starve over winter through swarming too late and too small castes. Swarms are not inherently bad but excessive swarming does need to be bred out.

Most beekeeoers have tried to 'breed out' swarminess for generations.
Judging by Emails I have had (some from members of this forum) there seems to be a few 'amateur breeders' who are working against this principal purely for profit. (unitentionally or otherwise)
Money to be made from unsuspecting beginners that are desparete to get their first bees. So dump any old 'carp' in a box. throw in a virgin and hope for the best and then as soon as she starts to lay. sell to the nearest innocent for 'top dollar'. You just need to put an advert on the internet with promises of back up and good 'customer services' and there you go. Money paid and no come back 'cos it was cash! Quality of bees are bound to decline with that sort of attitude. No doubt those bees will 'openly' mate with your carefully crafted strain and bugger that little venture for you! Still just a sign of the times I suppose. Doesn't do much for the integrity of the craft.
Disclaimer:
"Any similarity to anyone either living or dead in any way shape or form is purely intentional!"
Well that's my rant for this week

 

[steph333]

Beowulf A.Cooper was trying to breed bees which preferred supersedure over swarming.Does anyone know if this work continues? Never here it mentioned anywhere.

Stephen

 

[BeeJayBee]

Yay, I'm a drone

Congratulations! After this you'll end up being a Queen Bee!

I did a talk about 3 years ago for a BKA that supplied all beginners with swarms. I asked about their subsequent swarming experience and in a room of about 20 people all of them said all their bees swarm every year without fail.

The problem is beekeepers are inadvertently favouring those bees with the highest tendency to swarm. ...

Did you by any chance also ask these beekeepers what type of hives they were using?

In my area all new beekeepers were told to get standard national hives and then buy Carniolans because they are 'gentle' (good for beginners), but having gentle bees to begin with isn't much use when they swarm because they run out of space and nobody's bothered to tell new beekeepers about swarm control because a nuc isn't meant to swarm in the first season!

 

[GaryB]

Most beekeeoers have tried to 'breed out' swarminess for generations.
Judging by Emails I have had (some from members of this forum) there seems to be a few 'amateur breeders' who are working against this principal purely for profit. (unitentionally or otherwise)
Money to be made from unsuspecting beginners that are desparete to get their first bees. So dump any old 'carp' in a box. throw in a virgin and hope for the best and then as soon as she starts to lay. sell to the nearest innocent for 'top dollar'. You just need to put an advert on the internet with promises of back up and good 'customer services' and there you go. Money paid and no come back 'cos it was cash! Quality of bees are bound to decline with that sort of attitude. No doubt those bees will 'openly' mate with your carefully crafted strain and bugger that little venture for you! Still just a sign of the times I suppose. Doesn't do much for the integrity of the craft.
Disclaimer:
"Any similarity to anyone either living or dead in any way shape or form is purely intentional!"
Well that's my rant for this week

My thoughts exactly. Where do we get off the "God Syndrome". Surely keeping bees is an interface between us, and the natural world. There is possibly an argument for those that operate on a commercial basis, and that I can understand, however, if we all lived with bees that are totally predictable, what a boring existence that would be. We all live in a predictable and boring enough world, so why take the fun and excitement out of keeping bees. Otherwise, I'm sure we can find a computer programme, or in the not too distant future a robot to take care of our bees for us! I for one don't want "homogenised" bees.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Did you by any chance also ask these beekeepers what type of hives they were using?

In my area all new beekeepers were told to get standard national hives and then buy Carniolans because they are 'gentle' (good for beginners), but having gentle bees to begin with isn't much use when they swarm because they run out of space and nobody's bothered to tell new beekeepers about swarm control because a nuc isn't meant to swarm in the first season!

That preference for national brood boxes seems to be quite common. I bypassed the national because of some very good advice from a few of the more skillful beekeepers in the association to start off with 14 x 12. I also had my first bees (Buckfast) at home although I attended weekly training sessions religiously.
Having the extra room in the brood box is invaluable when dealing with prolific bees. Moving a full brood box isn't a frequent process.
I do have a standard Dn4 bait hive but if I catch a swarm I have the option of convenience when passing on to other association members. I have gifted new swarms as is (swap frames of bees for frames of foundation) to experienced members who can accept the risk inherent in unknown bees.
This winter I also bought a polynuc to keep an odd swarm or two through a brood cycle to draw out a full 6 frames and establish into a healthy colony. I recently sold the first and will produce another nuc to either sell in autumn or keep through next winter for a spring sale.
I freely give my phone number to our association new beginners. I had a really good contact in Paul who ran Yorkshire Beehives (sad loss to beekeeping when he stopped) when I first started and I try to help others in turn.

 

[domino]

I bypassed the national because of some very good advice from a few of the more skillful beekeepers in the association to start off with 14 x 12.

I recently went back to standards because I found them more flexible.