Its Never been done before

[Norton]

Hello,
I have to say that the Australian Italian queens I have seen in various countries leave me unimpressed. Seems like beekeepers in the USA are also not so keen on them anymore. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220059
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214707

It is well known that Italians are very prone to acarine and I hope that this will not be the case with these bees. The New Zealand couldn't cope with acarine in the UK and also had some serious problems with chalkbrood.
This is why Terry Brown included some Buckfast material in his stock.
Another negative trait is that they are not thrifty with their stores and therefore need a lot of feeding. The queens lay very well, but the workers are somewhat short-lived.
Best regards
Norton.

 

[Mission]

Very interesting thread, when did Mike actually get his new super queens into the UK?

 

[Norton]

Here is a link to an interesting article that mentions Australian bees:-
http://deltafarmpress.com/news/beekeepers-colonies-0220/
Best regards
Norton

 

[Mission]

Two things form this report immediately jump out as a potential problem.

"Other viruses worry researchers. “In particular, Israeli acute paralysis virus was identified in Israel but seems to be most prevalent in Australian honeybees, which have been imported in large numbers over the last several years.”

“However, it’s already been proven that their honeybees had one virus and, because they haven’t been challenged by varroa mites and some of the other things U.S. honeybees routinely deal with, they’re genetically weaker. They don’t live very long. They live long enough to pollinate, of course, but another concern is they weaken the U.S. honeybee population.”

Ok IPV has its protractors who say the marker isn't valid, but in most if not all of hives tested for CCD, IPV has been shown to be present. And these bees from Australia are so far in isolation that they haven't been exposed to the bank of pathogens in the UK. How will they react when they are suddenly hit by an established set of viruses?

I don't believe 5 queens brought into the UK in January can be classed as being over wintered. And I don't believe there are sufficient numbers in 5 queens to say they are capable of surviving the established disease pool.

Maybe if they are kept alive through the summer and then over wintered to survival in 2010, I will personally be a little less of a sceptic. At the moment the jury is very much out on whether these really are the super bees we have been looking for. If they are then I hope Mike secures a massive supply for next year. If they aren't I hope more damage isn't done by bringing them here in the first place.

I'm not negative towards the idea of bringing them here. I am just very cautious to accept that they are the answer to our UK problems, until at least they have been tested and proven as viable.

 

[mikethebee]

HI Norton, Mission thank you both for your informative post,

Norton, We all know your queens are the best! problem is you ant got none to sell? "I dont mean that in a bad way"
Your copy and paste post has been proved wrong in both USA and Aus.
Browns bees would not be exporting millions of bees in packages if that post was right would they? Also it?s a proven fact Packages bees are safer to import than bees on comb.
Mission
1st the 5 queens I brought back are an experiment.
2nd 5 queens being a min cost.
3rd to approve the 5 queens though both Governments, Agricultural, Ministry, Costumes, Health, Vet, Etc ---- strict restrictions.
4th to introduce the 5 queens into my hives during our winter and to follow the progress! Survive or die.
5th this is not to sell or has anything to do with other beeks! I have to see for myself if they can produce the goods I want THIS SEASON and that?s to produce lots of bees in my breeding boxes ?full stop?
6th I don?t get paid to sort out other beeks problems.
7th there is so much twaddle and jealousy amongst beekeepers I wonder we exists at all.
Please read and don?t contradict and confute, nor believe and take for granted, nor to find discourse; but to weigh and consider!

 

[Mission]

Sounds like a sensible experiment Mike. I think there are a lot of people out there who will jump on the "Answer to all our prayers" band waggon. But, it's good to see you taking a good balanced approach to whether these bees really are super.

I love your point 6. Of course you don't get paid to right the worlds bee keeping wrong. However, I think you do have a duty to make sure that the product that you sell is suitable for the task it is sold for. And surviving in the UK climate and in the UK's disease pool would of course tie into this. If your experiment is a success then you will be able to at least go some level to show that it is and therefore to a customer, worth investing in. If things with a customer got silly, then in a court of law it would be up to you to prove that they were suitable for the UK. And not for the customer to prove they were not. Your experiment needs to be bullet proof.

There is no jealousy, twaddle in anything I have written. I would love to see these new queens being a great success. Their input and offspring into the UK could be a very positive success story. It's just right now, they are an unproven quantity and from a country which globally has a questionable reputation for quality and productivity. I hope you are able to correct that image.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Bee's in court,never heard of any yet,so why would this happen with an Aus queen any more than a carniolan,Italian,russian,or what ever else you like.millions of things are not suitible for this country,but they are here.Be a bit like the dead parrot scene in monty python.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

 

[mikethebee]

Mission?? Where are you coming from what are you trying to imply?
Copy
If things with a customer got silly, then in a court of law it would be up to you to prove that they were suitable for the UK. And not for the customer to prove they were not. Your experiment needs to be bullet proof.

Copy There is no jealousy, twaddle in anything I have written.
I have to be a FOOL to believe you

Copy
It's just right now, they are an unproven quantity and from a country which globally has a questionable.

What are you telling me AUSTRALIA has an unproven reputation for quality and productivity please give an explanation.

There is something very dodgy about you my boy! I got the feeling your not to be trusted you talk with fork tongue.

www.easybeeproducts.co.uk

 

[Mission]

Hi Mike,

I make it a golden rule never to trust anyone. But I take no offence in your statement and can only repeat that I am certainly not jealous of you.

I think people have misunderstood what I meant.

Let me TRY and explain.

"What are you telling me AUSTRALIA has an unproven reputation for quality and productivity please give an explanation."

There is a general belief in the U.S that IPV was originally imported with queens from Australia. U.S bee keepers are very suspicious of all Austrailian bees. Many people in the UK have reported that bees from both Oz and Nz have had limited success in the UK. So - in my opinion (and that is what the forum allows us to share) The jury is still out as to whether bees from Austrailia are going to be a success. You of course are the man who is trying them out and I of course commend you for taking the gamble. Before we all get really excited about your new wonder find, lets keep our feet on the ground and lets wait and see what the results of your experiment prove.

"If things with a customer got silly, then in a court of law it would be up to you to prove that they were suitable for the UK. And not for the customer to prove they were not. Your experiment needs to be bullet proof."

I wasn't implying anything, again let me TRY explain. (please view this purely from an experiment point of view). As you had said, it's not your job to solve bee keeping problems. Your are a business man who's job it is to make money, good old Capitalism!

When a consumer buys a product they expect it to do a job. A colony of bees is expected to do a job. If I (as a consumer) bought a colony from you (a supplier), then you have sold it me on the understanding that it will do it's job and survive to do it. You have sold me a colony which you expect to have all the necessary attributes to work in our country and climate. Now if that colony failed during it's first year then as a consumer, I would have a legitimate right to either a replacement, or a refund. It would be up to you as the supplier to show that you had taken all steps necessary to protect me as the consumer and guarantee that the product you had sold me was suitable. It would not be up to me to prove it wasn't. The onus is on you as the supplier. So your experiment would need to be bulletproof to show you had done so.

What I was originally saying was that your experiment has to be bullet proof, bacause if it did get silly with a customer, then you would have to prove that you had taken all steps to protect your customer and give them a product that would do the job. The evidence of your experiment would have to be valid and reliable.

I suppose that Hivemaker is also right. The same might be said imported queens from other race too? I guess the same rules would apply?

I as a consumer would always excericise me legal rights. Just because as yet nobody has done so, doesn't mean it won't happen.

I hope that explains it simply enough.

Nothing fork tongue, nothing sinister, perhaps a little of track with the thread though! I am not really concerned whether I am trusted, liked or loathed. I am simply contributing a balanced opinion to an interesting thread.

 

[Finman]

.
The problem is queen's genes and its ability to adapt local seasons and winter. Do they lay all the time or do they keep a proper winter rest.

If you change the queen to the such one which react on winter, no problem with workers.

If you have a stock in UK which has a real brood brake, it makes varroa control simple with oxalic trickling.

 

[Mission]

Your a funny sort of chap Mike. You have all the worlds answers until someone offers something you don't like and then you resort to mud slinging. You don't take part in a balanced discussion, you simply take anything you disagree with as a threat posture and then react all cannons blazing. I have no problem in anyone in this forum knowing that I am J M Clegg - Jason or Jay to my friends. Is Bubo on the other forum really Finman on this one? There is no rule that says an alias has to match.

Am I pratt? - I simply don't care what you personally think of me. I don't care if you personally don't like my side of the discussion. You posted a thread on a forum, which is a public dialog platform for discussion. Do you simply want everyone to agree with you and jump through your hoop?

Do I argue? Not ever, I only offer a different opinion. I don't goad anyone, I simply offer an opinion. If you don't like that opinion, then you shouldn't start threads on a public forum. You are the first person to rant and rave, and make silly boy commments about people. Your recent thread discussing the weed with a reference to "Patterson" is a further highlight of your often very public childishness.

I remember the first time I came across this forum and the first thread I found was comment you had left about our Queen Rearing discussion on the other forum. You had cut and paste my comments directly into this forum in order to discredit something that offered a different opinion to yours. Again a childish act initiated by you.

For what its worth, I want these new queens to be a great success. I want you to succeed. If they really are as good as you claim then I really look forwards to buying some when you bring them to market. They will benefit every bee keeper in the country. The idea of rearing queens from decendents of your new bees is really interesting. This is of course if they prove satisfactory and survive in the UK.

You wrote earlier "6th I don?t get paid to sort out other beeks problems." No, but you do make your living from british bee keepers. You have publicly stated that it is not your job to solve bee keeping problems. Your happy to profit from us, but dismiss that fact that you should be responsible for the problems which you could indirectly be contributing to and causing us? Your only goal is to make money from us. If your making money from us, then as consumers we have a right to expect a good product, good service and our best needs as customer met. But your point 6 really doesn't look to support consumers.

If you don't like opposite points of view, then you shouldn't really open them up for discussion on a public forum. If the site admin feel I am out of line for offering a different opinion then I am sure they will ban me from writing here. I keep all my threads relevent and to the point. I don't mud sling or discredit. I am polite at all times and I have never publicly argued with anyone. I will however always endeavour to contribute and offer a balanced opinion. If my opinion is not in line with yours then there is nothing I can really do about that. Thats just the way it sometimes goes with public discussions.

 

[BKF Admin]

If the site admin feel I am out of line for offering a different opinion then I am sure they will ban me from writing here.

Hi Mission,

Why would I ban you ?

Its my opinion that you have stayed well within forum guidlines and have made some valid points.

The whole reason this forum was setup in the begining was because on the bbka forum many threads seemed to be one sided,this I found to be at times very frustrating.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone,just looking to see both sides for a change.

 

[gavin]

As a matter of interest, where are the forum rules? I'd have thought that Mike will have broken some with his crazy and insulting posts. Or are we all comfortable to watch the man make an utter fool of himself?

I have an entirely different position to Jay. When we have such a diversity of bees already in the country and bee pests and pathogens causing chaos worldwide, why on earth should we permit or even encourage folk to bring in queens from all over the world, purely for personal commercial gain? How crazy is that?!

best wishes

Gavin

 

[BKF Admin]

Hi Gavin,as the forum is run by its members I dont think anyone has written any rules yet.

As an active member and the first member to ask to read them would you be interested in writing some up for everyone?

 

[sphex]

All rules generally boil down to this.

 

[BKF Admin]

Spot on Sphex.well said!

 

[gavin]

I don't think that I'm the man to do this, but just being civil is essential to having a productive debate. Gratuitious insults have to be a no-no.

You may have spotted that the 'other' forum gets itself into difficulty from time to time perhaps because it tries to be a little strict, but mostly because there is a complete lack of consistency in how it tries to apply the rules it thinks it has.

Clear boundaries are needed unless everyone is mature and self-policing, and I think that we've just seen that everyone is not.

all the best

Gavin

 

[BKF Admin]

I agree Gavin,Mike does have his own posting style.

I am not sure if its just the way he is or if he is abusing the forum by insulting members.

Time will tell i am sure,if members complaign then action will have to be taken.

I have read a couple of pm's from members who seem to be jealous of his business and others who dont like the fact he imports queens,I dont want that to cloud anyones judgement while looking at his behavour as that would be unfair.

 

[Finman]

.
I am a moderator on Finnish forum. One of my principles is hat if some one makes his living with his bees, discussion forum is not a place where others try to hit weaken his living or try to moralize his business.

If some think that the acts are illegal, or honey is not valid, we have enough officials which will inspect the case. Beekeeping forum is not a place to discuss about these.

If some one says that Swedish or Chinese honey is rubbish, the message just disapears if there is no evidence on that.

To make his living and run a hobby are very different thing.

Mike is doing legal business. My opinion is that the beekeeping forum is not a place where others try to hit him down.

Natural beekeeping is one branch of bee business. But if natural beekeeper writes that "others are selling poisonous honey", the writing will disapear by me.


To ban some adult person? - The most stupid thing. Some one try to be a God on stupid forum.
.

 

[jimbeekeeper]

Mike is Mike, and I put up with it to a point, but he is going to far and just taking advantage of this forum.

YES we get the point MIke you are for www.easybeeproducts.co.uk

To save you typing it each time why not just add it as you signuture!!!

But then why should you advertise on this forum? We get nothing back

PS maybe we could use the forum doantion money to send Mike back to OZ (one way!)