its behind you (said in a panto voice) and the disappearing swarm

[citrus]

So did inspections last week and was all geared up to demaree a hive but they looked a bit odd ... lots of activity in the super as i lifted the plastic crown board ...
i picked thru trying to find the damn queen and was struggling (been here before) .... and didnt want to sieve the bees but walked back to the house to get some kit and blow me down there is a swarm on the small apple tree 20ft away so I took this hive to be the one that had swarmed ...

i put it in a nuc and moved it to a place away from the main hives and checked that most of them were marching in

there were still some bees by the tree the next day but guess that was the pheromone hanging around (or was it ?) ...

i vaped the swarm in the nuc a few nights later ...

checked it today and its empty ish apart from a few robbers ...

i am now confused so did a recheck of the 3 hives .... and did an AS on one hive where i found the queen ...but that leaves 2 hives where i am unable to find a queen but potentially have thrown a swarm ......

could the bees in the original swarm have gone back to the original hive (guess i didnt capture the queen ...my 5th swarm so certainly no expert) ?
the original hive had qc today but bias and again was unable to find HRH ....

some pictures are here

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMnywD2FYR1iUzdA7

 

[Antipodes]

So did inspections last week and was all geared up to demaree a hive but they looked a bit odd ... lots of activity in the super as i lifted the plastic crown board ...
i picked thru trying to find the damn queen and was struggling (been here before) .... and didnt want to sieve the bees but walked back to the house to get some kit and blow me down there is a swarm on the small apple tree 20ft away so I took this hive to be the one that had swarmed ...

i put it in a nuc and moved it to a place away from the main hives and checked that most of them were marching in

there were still some bees by the tree the next day but guess that was the pheromone hanging around (or was it ?) ...

i vaped the swarm in the nuc a few nights later ...

checked it today and its empty ish apart from a few robbers ...

i am now confused so did a recheck of the 3 hives .... and did an AS on one hive where i found the queen ...but that leaves 2 hives where i am unable to find a queen but potentially have thrown a swarm ......

could the bees in the original swarm have gone back to the original hive (guess i didnt capture the queen ...my 5th swarm so certainly no expert) ?
the original hive had qc today but bias and again was unable to find HRH ....

some pictures are here

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMnywD2FYR1iUzdA7

Hi Chris,
As they seem to only take about ten minutes to leave the hive and settle, a swarm is an easy thing to miss. Once captured, I always put a frame with some open brood in the box with the swarm to help hold them. Yes, some bees can hang around for days in the spot where the swarm initially settled.
It sounds like the start of your Demaree actions coincided with the swarm gearing up to leave, so I suppose things would have been hectic in the hive.

 

[Boston Bees]

So did inspections last week and was all geared up to demaree a hive but they looked a bit odd ... lots of activity in the super as i lifted the plastic crown board ...
i picked thru trying to find the damn queen and was struggling (been here before) .... and didnt want to sieve the bees but walked back to the house to get some kit and blow me down there is a swarm on the small apple tree 20ft away so I took this hive to be the one that had swarmed ...

i put it in a nuc and moved it to a place away from the main hives and checked that most of them were marching in

there were still some bees by the tree the next day but guess that was the pheromone hanging around (or was it ?) ...

i vaped the swarm in the nuc a few nights later ...

checked it today and its empty ish apart from a few robbers ...

i am now confused so did a recheck of the 3 hives .... and did an AS on one hive where i found the queen ...but that leaves 2 hives where i am unable to find a queen but potentially have thrown a swarm ......

could the bees in the original swarm have gone back to the original hive (guess i didnt capture the queen ...my 5th swarm so certainly no expert) ?
the original hive had qc today but bias and again was unable to find HRH ....

some pictures are here

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMnywD2FYR1iUzdA7

When you vaped the swarm in the nuc, did you open it? Or just vape through the mesh? Were they definitely still there at that point?

Also, regarding your inspections, if a hive had thrown a swarm, you would see swarm cells. Did you?

 

[pargyle]

@citrus ... My comments are in bold below:

So did inspections last week and was all geared up to demaree a hive but they looked a bit odd ... lots of activity in the super as i lifted the plastic crown board ...
i picked thru trying to find the damn queen and was struggling (been here before) .... and didnt want to sieve the bees but walked back to the house to get some kit and blow me down there is a swarm on the small apple tree 20ft away so I took this hive to be the one that had swarmed ...

Did you see swarm cells in the hive you suspected had swarmed ?

i put it in a nuc and moved it to a place away from the main hives and checked that most of them were marching in

Did you leave the Nuc next to the spot where they swarned to until after dark when all the bees were in ?

there were still some bees by the tree the next day but guess that was the pheromone hanging around (or was it ?) ...

Or did you not get the queen and then removed the nuc ?

i vaped the swarm in the nuc a few nights later ...

checked it today and its empty ish apart from a few robbers ...

So they absconded by the sounds of it - not unusual for swarms ?

i am now confused so did a recheck of the 3 hives .... and did an AS on one hive where i found the queen ...but that leaves 2 hives where i am unable to find a queen but potentially have thrown a swarm ......

You talk about finding queens but are you finding queen cells and what are you doing about them ?

could the bees in the original swarm have gone back to the original hive (guess i didnt capture the queen ...my 5th swarm so certainly no expert) ?

the original hive had qc today but bias and again was unable to find HRH ....

So were the queen cells open with larvae, capped or uncapped ?... This will tell you whether you have a colony that has swarmed ... if the queen cells are uncapped odds on they have gone, capped there's a good chance they have gone, uncapped with larvae they have not swarmed.

Concentrate on queen cells ... not on finding the queen.

 

[citrus]

thanks for all the comments ...


1. didnt check the bees stayed in the nuc in the evening before i moved it (mistake) - went back to work so missed them leaving !
2. didnt check the bees where in the box before i vaped on day 4 ... (mistake)
3. didnt put open brood frame in the nuc on day1 (sounds like I should do that ) - does that mean capped brood or uncapped eggs ?

 

[Boston Bees]

thanks for all the comments ...


1. didnt check the bees stayed in the nuc in the evening before i moved it (mistake) - went back to work so missed them leaving !
2. didnt check the bees where in the box before i vaped on day 4 ... (mistake)
3. didnt put open brood frame in the nuc on day1 (sounds like I should do that ) - does that mean capped brood or uncapped eggs ?

Best guess is that you didn't capture the queen in the nuc, and the bees simply returned to the hive. That could be because you killed her, or because she never made it to the tree in the first place for some reason, or just because she stayed on the tree rather than going in to the nuc. Happens!

Absconding is another possibility, though not frequent in my experience

I never give swarms brood but if I have a frame of unused comb, especially brood comb, I give them that. They love that, and swarm all over it with great enthusiasm.

 

[Antipodes]

uncapped

Just a bit of uncapped (eggs/larvae). If not available, or if reluctant, then as per Boston above with the used brood comb.

 

[citrus]

yeah i had some old brood comb and used that so fair enough ... in fact some residual bees stayed in the nuc as there was a bit of stores in there ... they overnight there and arent just robbers ... should shake them out really

 

[Antipodes]

yeah i had some old brood comb and used that so fair enough ... in fact some residual bees stayed in the nuc as there was a bit of stores in there ... they overnight there and arent just robbers ... should shake them out really

There is the e-b-ocimene apparently in the open brood, particularly from the really young larvae, which does interesting things to workers. It's like a magnet to them from what I've seen.
https://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=FR2014015779

 

[citrus]

so you could get all the workers using the open broad ...and even if you miss/kill the queen they can generate their own and the nuc has a chance to survive...so get 2 for 1 deal then !