Is possible to be cruel to Honey Bees

[user 6228]

Before a debate about what might constitute something its useful to find out if people agree something can exist first

This is a poll about is possible to have cruellty to honey bees

 

[gaboca]

options 3 and 6 are logically the same.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I think you need to define what cruelty is before anyone can logically answer your poll.
For example, you may think housing bees in a very large hive is cruel. In this case they could abscond.
I may think that driving a bulldozer over the hive is cruel. In this case they couldn't abscond.
So, you need to identify the line between negligence, ignorance, mis-management Vs cruelty IMO.

If it was just a yes/no answer then I would answer yes.

 

[jakethedog]

I may think that driving a bulldozer over the hive is cruel. In this case they couldn't abscond.

No, that's murder!!

 

[Vergilius]

Sorry, but I have to say no... One could argue that the very act of keeping bees in a hive and taking their honey is being "cruel" to them - but, at the end of the day, they are just insects and we keep them because they interest and benefit us - not because we are doing them an act of kindness.

I am not saying that we should not care for our bees, but, in the larger scheme of things, bees (and all other animals) are there to serve us - not the other way round. This is why these days I'm not interested in the whole anti-commercial argument; our population needs the food that those bees pollinate.

I don't like hearing about truck accidents that result in the deaths of thousands of bees, but to me, it is more important whether the driver got out alive or not.


Ben P

PS Not a great poll in my opinion.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I don't like hearing about truck accidents that result in the deaths of thousands of bees, but to me, it is more important whether the driver got out alive or not.
.

Ben, (and I'm just playing devil's advocate here), if a vandal destroyed one of your hives would you consider that to be cruel? And would you be more worried that the vandal escaped unhurt?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Been pondering what "cruel" means to me, and decided its a combo of

Doing something to a creature/forcing a creature to do something

• without regard for its well being
• with nasty/vindictive/evil/amusement-only intent

If that's a reasonable definition then I'd have to vote Yes, it is possible to be cruel - eg setting fire to a hive (AFB containment accepted!)

Ben - I'd strongly disagree that keeping bees itself is cruel - a lot of it may be against their natural instincts, but even stealing their honey is justified by providing them with sufficient stores as required all year long, which they may not have in the wild.

And we do other techniques such as varroa treating which are mutually beneficial. Kindness doesn't come into it, that's not the question.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Just as an aside, there is a very interesting book on the subject of animal cruelty called 'What Animals Want' by Larry Carbone.
The author is a vet who works in animal vivisection labs in the US, so he is obviously well placed to understand the levels of suffering that humans inflict upon animals. It is an interesting read because, although he is pledged to reduce animal suffering, his involvement in the process could, by more extreme animal rights people, be seen to be supporting the vivisection regime.
His general view is that it IS acceptable for humans to exploit animals but that we need to do a lot more to reduce suffering.

 

[user 6228]

I think you need to define what cruelty is before anyone can logically answer your poll.
For example, you may think housing bees in a very large hive is cruel. In this case they could abscond.
I may think that driving a bulldozer over the hive is cruel. In this case they couldn't abscond.
So, you need to identify the line between negligence, ignorance, mis-management Vs cruelty IMO.

If it was just a yes/no answer then I would answer yes.

Answer the question in your own terms... is cruelty possible, we debate what constitutes cruelty or cause later as i said in the OP...

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Answer the question in your own terms... is cruelty possible, we debate what constitutes cruelty or cause later as i said in the OP...

As I said, I would answer yes, but the presence of so many options requires me to have a clear understanding of what cruelty is. From a philosophical point of view if I don't know what cruelty is how can I know if cruelty is possible?
However, for the sake of not being pedantic, I'll vote on the simple basis of is cruelty possible or not (with the proviso that cruelty is a human concept rather than something inate in nature).

 

[Vergilius]

Ben, (and I'm just playing devil's advocate here), if a vandal destroyed one of your hives would you consider that to be cruel? And would you be more worried that the vandal escaped unhurt?

I am saying that I, as the "owner" (got to be careful using that word with bees!!!) of my bees, cannot be accused of being cruel to them; if however someone else comes and destroys one of my colonies deliberately then they are doing an act of cruelty against me - so yes I would love it if they got a good stinging in the process!!!

"Ben - I'd strongly disagree that keeping bees itself is cruel - a lot of it may be against their natural instincts, but even stealing their honey is justified by providing them with sufficient stores as required all year long, which they may not have in the wild."

I said that "one could argue that keeping bees itself is cruel" - as a beekeeper, that is obviously not my personal opinion.


Ben P

 

[mbc]

Sorry, but I have to say no... One could argue that the very act of keeping bees in a hive and taking their honey is being "cruel" to them - but, at the end of the day, they are just insects and we keep them because they interest and benefit us - not because we are doing them an act of kindness.

I am not saying that we should not care for our bees, but, in the larger scheme of things, bees (and all other animals) are there to serve us - not the other way round. This is why these days I'm not interested in the whole anti-commercial argument; our population needs the food that those bees pollinate.

I don't like hearing about truck accidents that result in the deaths of thousands of bees, but to me, it is more important whether the driver got out alive or not.


Ben P

PS Not a great poll in my opinion.

Wise words Ben.
Maybe we should have a poll to sound out wether people believe its possible to be cruel to varroa

 

[user 6228]

options 3 and 6 are logically the same.

lcorrect - intentional logic is only one aspect of debate - rhetoric and I forget the others

 

[greatbritishhoney]

So, just to test Ben's theory further. If I wipe out an entire colony of wild bees for fun, is that cruel? They have no owner.
What about if I deliberatley kill the penultimate specimen of an endangered species of insect?

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Wise words Ben.
Maybe we should have a poll to sound out wether people believe its possible to be cruel to varroa

THAT would be interesting - would have to answer yes, but dont care

 

[mbc]

So, just to test Ben's theory further. If I wipe out an entire colony of wild bees for fun, is that cruel? They have no owner.
What about if I deliberatley kill the penultimate specimen of an endangered species of insect?

Wantonly destructive isnt cruelty as such but they could overlap.
The "for fun" bit points towards cruelty IMO

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

I said that "one could argue that keeping bees itself is cruel" - as a beekeeper, that is obviously not my personal opinion.


Ben P

I'm happy to accept that is your position, but a flawed logical argument - plenty keep bees and other insects/animals for a variety of reasons but with no regard for their wellbeing - although the bee can normally vote with its wings.

 

[xgeordie]

in the larger scheme of things, bees (and all other animals) are there to serve us - not the other way round.

This statement reminds me of a campaign to tackle the shocking cruelty to donkeys in Africa. The poor animals are basically worked to death. No compassion - because people believe it is the animals "duty to serve".

I don't believe animals are there to serve us at all. We choose to use them.

 

[mbc]

I'm not sure the "although the bee can normally vote with its wings." argument is valid, as it takes quite a bit to persuade Apis Mellifera to abandon their young and all their worldly possessions

 

[The Cumbrian]

B

Yes, it is possible to be cruel - eg setting fire to a hive (AFB containment accepted!)

I haven't made my mind up for various reasons but the statement above I find odd.

If setting fire to a hive is cruel it is cruel under ALL circumstances.