Insulation.

[Finman]

On the flip side of that though redwood is that if the bees haven't used enough stores over the winter they cant build up quickly due to lack of space and if you put a super on to early you may find the bees are moving sugar stores up into it to get the space.

Noooooooo

You take extra food off and leave a proper amount of food there.

If you put too early super onto the hive, you spoil the build up.
And bees do not move sugar to the Super when they are not able to keep Super warm.

Mostly guys are earger to feed small colonies and they stuck the combs. And what do the bees: they swarm and escape.

if you have one box full of bees, proper amount of food in spring is 2 full frames alltogether.

.

 

[Finman]

Galaxy asked a simple question about insulation - I'm sure as he gains experience and confidence the rest will follow.
I think alanf's post encapsulates the whole thing in a nutcase

Yes, because he does not know what to do.

Insulation issues should be very clear to this forum members, because it has been discussed so awfully much.

But it is going worse and worse with its kingspans. Even polyhives are rubbish in that depate.

 

[Finman]

.
Insulation saves winter food. It means that the food stores lasts couple of months longer and saves some hives from starvation and saves beekeepers from emergency feedings.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Posts moved from the beginners section, carry on here.

 

[Norfolk]

Posts moved from the beginners section, carry on here.

Slightly off the topic of insulation but I think you are going to have to do this many times in the beginners section until the members get used to it, and what it is there for.

Good move

 

[Dishmop]

if you have one box full of bees, proper amount of food in spring is 2 full frames alltogether.

is that Finland spring or UK spring?

 

[user 6228]

The change in the amount of food needed over winter can be pretty dramatic with insulation... At the level we use it we have to disregard all the sage advice about feeding in autumn and work it out again from scratch. Hence why
I think our level of insulation would be a challenge for naive beginner.

 

[Finman]

is that Finland spring or UK spring?

It is in my hives, not in Finland.
I have here pretty much colder spring than you have and I keep only that amount of stores in the hive that brooding has room.

When I started to use polyhives, too much food stores was bigger problem than too less food. But however, it is needed to sheck every hive, what is their store situation. Enough or not.
Consumption of food is very different in each hive.

2 frames is 5 kg food.

And it was an answers to the idea that "insulation saves so much food that queen cannot lay".

If you have too much food in spring, take extra away,
If it is too few, give more .

.

 

[Finman]

.

A beginner should know that secret of Apis mellifera's success is to use a tree cavity as a hive. It is a big thing in the bee family.

Other Apis species make combs under open sky. Even 80% of Apis cerana colonies prefer to make its hive in open air.

Apis Mellifera search insulated place, where it can live over winter and store honey for winter.

In Africa bees tend to move to better areas according blooming. So do Asian relatives.

 

[dpearce4]

Noooooooo

You take extra food off and leave a proper amount of food there.

If you put too early super onto the hive, you spoil the build up.
And bees do not move sugar to the Super when they are not able to keep Super warm.

Mostly guys are earger to feed small colonies and they stuck the combs. And what do the bees: they swarm and escape.

if you have one box full of bees, proper amount of food in spring is 2 full frames alltogether.

.

Haha Finnmiester.

The point I was sort of trying to make was, there are lots of beekeepers that WILL NOT open up a hive and do an inspection until it has become short shirt sleeve weather (blame the BBKA for this), this can be well into the spring build up time, causing brood blockage and causing the bees to think about swarming very early.

Im sure that most of the early swarms in april are due to this. We are lucky here Finman that the weather starts to warm up late feb and early march and OSR can come into flower before some beeks have even done a first full inspection of the year.

 

[Finman]

Haha Finnmiester.

The point I was sort of trying to make was, there are lots of beekeepers that WILL NOT open up a hive and do an inspection until it has become short shirt sleeve weather (blame the BBKA for this), this can be well into the spring build up time, causing brood blockage and causing the bees to think about swarming very early.

Im sure that most of the early swarms in april are due to this. We are lucky here Finman that the weather starts to warm up late feb and early march and OSR can come into flower before some beeks have even done a first full inspection of the year.

And those guys need some advices?

We had country full of those "do nothing" guys 30 years ago, but then varroa killed hives and then the do nothing beehive owners. HAHA.


We have now only good beekeepers and they take care of their bees. Breeding quality is good.

. Yeah! It is better to ask from forum, what is matter with my hive, than open the hive.

 

[Dishmop]

Yeah! It is better to ask from forum, what is matter with my hive, than open the hive.

Dont let it get to you Finman... We know who not to take advice from.

 

[user 6228]

Haha Finnmiester.

The point I was sort of trying to make was, there are lots of beekeepers that WILL NOT open up a hive and do an inspection until it has become short shirt sleeve weather (blame the BBKA for this), this can be well into the spring build up time, causing brood blockage and causing the bees to think about swarming very early.

Im sure that most of the early swarms in april are due to this. We are lucky here Finman that the weather starts to warm up late feb and early march and OSR can come into flower before some beeks have even done a first full inspection of the year.

I don't look forward it though
. It's a problem with highly insulated hives, they are warmed and ready to go any weather. If it's below 16c and you open them up , it's you they go for
It's a total contrast to their normal behaviour.

 

[dpearce4]

I don't look forward it though
. It's a problem with highly insulated hives, they are warmed and ready to go any weather. If it's below 16c and you open them up , it's you they go for
It's a total contrast to their normal behaviour.

This would be a problem if you want to dribble OA then as they should be in cluster when its done.

 

[user 6228]

Won't be doing that as another issue is that all the acaricide testing is done in colonies with wooden boxes not even in polys according to the man from Vita last night.

 

[pargyle]

The change in the amount of food needed over winter can be pretty dramatic with insulation... At the level we use it we have to disregard all the sage advice about feeding in autumn and work it out again from scratch. Hence why
I think our level of insulation would be a challenge for naive beginner.

From listening to your talk in PBKA a few weeks ago and your various posts is it correct to say that your insulated bees use much less stores over winter than in uninsulated hives ? The 'conventional' advice is that the lower the colony temp ... down to the point where they are 'torpid' ... the better as they consume less stores.

I'm, obviously, working with a well insulated hive and will be weighing it so I shall be keeping a close watch on usage but could you elaborate on the above statement please ?

 

[user 6228]

From listening to your talk in PBKA a few weeks ago and your various posts is it correct to say that your insulated bees use much less stores over winter than in uninsulated hives ? The 'conventional' advice is that the lower the colony temp ... down to the point where they are 'torpid' ... the better as they consume less stores.

I'm, obviously, working with a well insulated hive and will be weighing it so I shall be keeping a close watch on usage but could you elaborate on the above statement please ?

With highly insulated hives you have to check each piece of advice for relevance to your setup.
That the bees consume less when cold is derived from research where the bees are placed in a temperature controlled box, and the power generated by the bees is determined by gas analysis.
This is not that far away from a wooden box as the insulation is so low that the bees cannot substantially alter the internal temperature from the external temperature. The environment is outside the scope of their control.
However, in a highly insulated box or tree nest the nest temperature and their power output is within their scope of control. They can reduce their power output to suit their needs.
The reductions in food consumption in real environments with higher levels of insulation are documented. Their detailed behaviours in this environment are not documented. We know the gross effects but not the detail.

 

[MuswellMetro]

From my limited experience yes, a lot more stores left in a polyhive in spring than a similar size cedar hive starting out at the same weight of strores in autumn, which means I agree with Finman that too much stores is a problem rather than too little over wintering Polyhives

It early days though for me as I have only been trialling poly hives since 2012

However as you say, the anecdotal evidence with poly hives goes against the view that colder bees use less stores, which is another reason why I think Wedmore was wrong

 

[user 6228]

From my limited experience yes, a lot more stores left in a polyhive in spring than a similar size cedar hive starting out at the same weight of strores in autumn, which means I agree with Finman that too much stores is a problem rather than too little over wintering Polyhives

It early days though for me as I have only been trialling poly hives since 2012

However as you say, the anecdotal evidence with poly hives goes against the view that colder bees use less stores, which is another reason why I think Wedmore was wrong

It's not anecdotal. The reduction on stores consumption was recorded in scientific paper in the 1970s.
And with closer inspection you can see its a logical fallacy to keep bees uninsulated and cold to reduce food consumption. I.e the fallacy is
If at temp x stores consumption is low, that for stores consumption to be low you have to be at temp x.

This is a fallacy of A=>B then B=>A


Here I can show it in practice using the graphs from original research

We will use a colony weighing 1kg.
In the lab (no insulation) external ambient 5c it will consume-produce 8Watts from graph.( southwick 1982)


Put this colony In a hive with conductivity 0.5W/K, that insulation and that 8W gives a temperature rise of 16C which results in a total temperature of 21C.

If the bees behaviour puts the hive temp to 18C there is a saving of 1.5W

so they save energy and every bee in the colony is warm enough to sting the next beekeeper that disturbs them

Which is why I don't look forward to colder weather manipulations etc..

 

[Hivemaker.]

The Thermology of Wintering Honey Bee Colonies.

Another colony, insulated with 2 inches of glass wool and equipped with a heater, was placed in the refrigerator on January 19 after 2 months’ winter inactivity outside. It was kept in the refrigerator for 18 weeks until May 24 at a mean refrigerator temperature of -14.5º F. The highest refrigerator temperature for this test was 31º and the lowest -26º. The hive heating unit was set at 35º and operated five times during the 18 weeks for periods of 48 hours each time to determine the effect of heat on cluster volume and to let the bees move honey if necessary.

The heating of the hive changed the cluster volume. There was no indication during the heating period that the cluster shifted position or that the bees moved honey from outside the cluster area. The eventual death of the colony was caused by starvation and failure to replace old bees.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies/