How to add a slot for castellated spacers to Super

[Luka22]

Hi everybody,

Just looking at the big T's catalogue and reading about castellated spacers, that their first Nationals have slots to accommodate spacers, so you do not have to nail them on, instead you can slot them in. I really like that idea. I have still got lots of Flat Packed Supers and was wondering if it's possible to do them slots myself. Does anyone know where these slots sit and how they look?

 

[itma]

Hi everybody,

Just looking at the big T's catalogue and reading about castellated spacers, that their first Nationals have slots to accommodate spacers, so you do not have to nail them on, instead you can slot them in. I really like that idea. I have still got lots of Flat Packed Supers and was wondering if it's possible to do them slots myself. Does anyone know where these slots sit and how they look?

I can't give you dimensions, but a simple saw cut should suffice.

However - note that Thorne's slots aren't only on the 'shelf' you'd expect them to be - they extend into the end walls. And what that means is that Thorne's "standard" castellations are too long for a simple 'shelf' slot or to nail onto the side wall.
They do sell shorter 10-slot-only castellations as "bees on a budget".
Note that Paynes poly nationals use the 'slot on the shelf' approach and that they do sell a variety of castellations in the correct shorter length which may be of use to you. And they have useful illustrations too like http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/images/products/secondary/5029839063159--1.jpg

 

[Luka22]

Thanks itma, I have already got some Castellated Spacer and they are short because they have to fit inside the walls, since they are normally nailed on. I am not sure why you would cut them into the end wall and I surely would not do that. I can only see 2 possible issues.

1. cut is too deep, castellated spacers go in too deep so the frames are too low from box and bees can not walk under the ends anymore
2. cut is to wide so each time you lift a frame the castellated spacer comes undone.

Mmh, so does not sound easy.... I have just seen the cut on their instructions. Its on the inner wall. I suppose it is not that important how far it sits from the edge, but would still be good to know.

Would still be great to know the widths of the saw blade I should use and how deep it should be.... anyone got that information?

 

[itma]

Paynes slot is about 25mm in from the outside of the shelf, 9 and a bit from the inside edge.
With a Paynes castellation fitted, the bottom of the 'notch' is about 5.6mm above the shelf.

The slot is wide enough to take your castellations. If its too narrow, they won't fit. If its too wide, your pals will stick the metalwork in place with propolis.

 

[Luka22]

Thanks, I will try your measurements today and see how it would look and than I have to find a very thin Saw Blade...

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Hi everybody,

Just looking at the big T's catalogue and reading about castellated spacers, that their first Nationals have slots to accommodate spacers, so you do not have to nail them on, instead you can slot them in. I really like that idea. I have still got lots of Flat Packed Supers and was wondering if it's possible to do them slots myself. Does anyone know where these slots sit and how they look?

Are you sure, really really sure, that you want to lose the freedom to space your frames how you want? I prefer slide rails and have a bit of wood to use as a spacing guage. Never found a bee strong enough to move things after positioning yet and once a bit of propolis is on the rail/frame ends things remain still during steady lifting of the super during inspection visits

 

[wessexmario]

it's not so much the spacing, with casellations you loose the ability to take one frame out, and then slide the others as you inspect. Bees don't always draw comb in nice even layers even if the frames are exactly spaced, it's so much easier to not roll bees if you can ease frames apart horizontally before lifting.
It's also MUCH easier and less likely to damage lugs to unstick frames stuck with propalis by levering sideways rather than upwards
Castellations force you to only lift before separating - I don't see any advantage in using them.

Other ways one could set frames equidistant:
- use spacers on the lugs
- use Hoffmans in the brood and Manleys in the supers.
- mark the lug positions on the box - writing the frame numbers on the runner/ box can be dual purpose - to locate the lug and also handy to refer to when taking notes about individual frames.
- use a "standard thumb" to space them
- use a castellation bar. Loose, as a tool. You can modify the bar so that the slots have rounded or angled openings to make it easier to insert. Just push down on the lugs to equi-space them and remove (using it upside down from the normal 'installed' orientation) - all the advantages without the restriction of not being able to slide frames apart.

 

[pargyle]

Paynes slot is about 25mm in from the outside of the shelf, 9 and a bit from the inside edge.
With a Paynes castellation fitted, the bottom of the 'notch' is about 5.6mm above the shelf.

The slot is wide enough to take your castellations. If its too narrow, they won't fit. If its too wide, your pals will stick the metalwork in place with propolis.

Not hijacking the thread but it's a bit relevant ...

I've just bought a few castellated spacers for use in my supers - they are very cheap and I tacked them on to my last order from Paynes. I've never bothered with castellations in the past - I've used hoffmans for the supers and as they expand the comb just spaced the frames by eye .. Anyway, I've got a set of all three sizes that Paynes sell 9,10 & 11 slot from memory as I wasn't sure what works .. and was going to try them out.

I am aware that Hoffmans are not ideal in the supers but they were what I had, I will be changing to Manley frames when I've used up existing stock.

So .. the question I have is which flavour do you use in your supers ? I wondered if the three types were so that you could gradually increase the spacing as combs are built out ...but that seems a bit of a faff ?

PS: Itma - your PM inbox is full ...

 

[pargyle]

Well ... I think I got my answer before I finished typing the question !!

I think I will fix some timber on the non castellated edges of the strips I've bought and just use them for frame spacing as Wessexmario suggests ..

Be warned .. the castellation strips from Paynes are razor sharp on the straight edge .. I sliced my finger getting them out of the packaging.

 

[itma]

BECAUSE you don't take (crop) super frames out to inspect them (except very rarely), castellations are a pretty reasonable way to go - in crop supers.
In crop supers, you have a fair amount of freedom to choose the spacing that works best for you.

Shallow 'half' brood boxes (which it is useful to distinguish carefully from crop supers) should IMHO have hoffman frames on rails.


I have recently been using SN1 frames - the most basic and cheapest.
When new, I start them 12 to a box using 'hoffman converter clips' in a box with rails.
Once the frames are mostly drawn, 10 get moved to a different box, with 10-slot castellations (clips being removed during transfer).
Two decently drawn frames get left in the centre of the rail box, which gets 10 new frames with the recycled converter clips.
I've meant to experiment this year with putting (drawn and) extracted frames from 10-slot boxes into 9-slot boxes - to be made even fatter. And the other thing was to do the initial drawing on 11-slot boxes.

Point being that the bees do a much better job of drawing flat comb if they aren't given a whole lot of space to draw it out into!

Manleys are 10 to a box and great once they are properly drawn. But the bees may not get the drawing right first time every time!
Oh and the Paynes National poly supers may actually be the odd millimetre 'short'. 10 Thornes Manleys don't quite fit! You can just about shoehorn them in when absolutely new - but getting them out for extraction is even harder. (They do fit nicely in all my wooden supers, which is where they now reside.)

 

[Luka22]

I have tried 8 SN last year, but that did not work out. This year I have tried out 9, but you should definitely not start with 9 because the Bees draw it in all directions with all the space. So I start with 12 in a Box and when they are drawn they go to the Castellated 9, but that is also the reason why I want the slot. Right now my Supers are either rails or 9 slot Castellated nailed on. If I would have a slot, then I could change the Castellated over as I want them.