How much space do bees need over the winter?

[Jim Newmark]

From a beginner.
Summer 2011, for me, was one of swarming (one given away and the other dying). I ended up at the end of summer with just three or four frames of brood that seemed to struggle through to the spring, riddled with varroa .... but it at least survived.
This year, 2012, has been COMPLETELY different. There has been no swarming at all and a seemingly healthy and happy colony, drawing comb and giving me my first honey (most of which I suspect I will feed back). And I haven't seen a single varroa mite, I suppose a big tribute to the treatment with oxalic acid in winter.
But they don't have any space! All the frames of the brood box are packed with bees (although I see that they are busy housekeeping the drones today so there will be a few bees less!) So I have the reverse problem to last year, if anything too MANY bees rather than too few. Do I put a super on (with some frames of their drawn comb perhaps)? Or just leave them be?

 

[Finman]

But they don't have any space! All the frames of the brood box are packed with bees (although?

Sounds that they have a proper space for winter.



.

 

[drex]

The main consideration is to ensure you have enough stores.

My first winter a single BB was adequate. I now overwinter on BB + super. While feeding I have the super on top, then when I tuck them up for winter I move it to under the BB. On here opinions vary as to over or under. Probably makes little difference. However do not forget that excess space is space that they (wastefully) will need to heat.

A lot will depend on your strain of bee. Don't forget that as soon as they cluster the apparent volume of bees drops dramatically.

 

[BeeNice]

You need to tell whether you have a national hive. Is the hive a brood box only? I see you still have drones, they won't be around for long. If the bees are still flying they will be taking in mostly Ivy, and some HB if it's around in your area. As a guide I think you should have a super on so the bees have a bit of space to store. If you have drawn super comb, then you can put a super underneath the brood box (I have all my supers on top, but then I will have to find the queens come next spring to put her in the brood box as she will most likely be in the top box). You will have to work out how much space is taken up with brood and how much with stores. The queen will have slowed down laying now so should be mostly store, but by giving them more space can't hurt with a strong hive. Do it soon if you are going to do it, as the time is getting on and you don't want to open up at this time of year.
Steven

 

[Finman]

The main consideration is to ensure you have enough stores.
.

You feed the hive full and it is enough. At least you cannot enlarge the hive before winter.
One box takes in that famous 20 kg sugar.... unless it is not half full ivy.

But if you have now full box brood and it is time to feed, then put there a upper box and feed it full.
But if frames have free store room, feed it full in that box.

.

 

[richardbees]

Jim,

-do you mean all the frames of comb are packed with stores (honey or syrup) and all are covered with bees?

 

[Jim Newmark]

Thanks for all this, it is really helpful. The hive is a National and currently a brood box only, with a super acting as an eke to give space for the feeder (with their own honey, but they seem only moderately interested). There are a LOT of bees over the tops of all of the frames but, to be honest, I haven't looked for a while to see how much of the combs consist of stores. I suppose I should be hefting the hive, but I am not that confident about judging from this. I don't really want to get them cold and upset them, but should I risk opening the hive and looking in anyway? Or just take a (probably very poor) guess from hefting?
The gist from the advice so far seems to be to put a super with some drawn comb underneath. Is that reasonable? How often does the queen move downwards by the spring?

 

[Outlander]

Hi Jim, I’m very new to beekeeping and also thought how would I ever get to grips with hefting a hive and telling how much stores it had. Last week I came across a robbed out colony, their hive was as light as light could be. The colony that was doing the robbing on the other hand was very heavy. Once I got home I hefted both my hives here and they where also very heavy.

If you think of a frame of brood, its very light and with stores it feels heavier. Then think about a frame of stores, I have 14x12 which feels very heavy after inspecting a few.

I would say that if you lift your hive and it is not easy to lift with one arm your fine. If you are still worried we are supposed to have some good weather next week so go in for a quick look at the stores.

Good luck.

 

[village girl]

i think hefting is something you lern over time, so to be able to judge the weight of your hives you must keep trying and compering so next year you will be better able to tell the amount of stores without looking

 

[Finman]

There are a LOT of bees over the tops of all of the frames but, to be honest, I haven't looked for a while to see how much of the combs consist of stores. I suppose I should be hefting the hive, but I am not that confident about judging from this.?

Hive has allways lots of bees.

When you look inside, it is only way to clear out what is there.

.

 

[Finman]

i think hefting is something you lern over time, so to be able to judge the weight of your hives you must keep trying and compering so next year you will be better able to tell the amount of stores without looking

I think not. Human is not a balance and then he remember what was the weight last year. Beekeeping does not go that way.

 

[Outlander]

I think not. Human is not a balance and then he remember what was the weight last year. Beekeeping does not go that way.

Sorry I think VG is possibly right unless you Finns have some secret way of doing these thing, May be you put a data card in between your teeth and make your arm into some kind of weighing machine, or may be your all telepathic and the bees are able to communicate with you and tell you in person. If none of these and VG is still wrong then tell me how does one learn to determine the weight of a hive by hefting if not by time and repetitive hefting.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

I have a schools experiment I do with 6 russian dolls where people have to put them in order from heaviest to lightest. No one has ever got it right (>5000 goes), use scales ......in fact >4500 have the heaviest as the lightest!

 

[Finman]

Sorry I think VG is possibly right unless you Finns have some secret way of doing these thing, May be you put a data card in between.

To feed the hive is less difficult than make that 1:2 syrup, even to us Finns. The most difficult is to bye sugar. It needs MONEY!

It is weather why it does not work there.

Secret is that if you feed into hive 20 kg, it has so feeded 20 kg. Don't tell others!

 

[Outlander]

OK Finny I think I understood where you’re coming from but also I still think you can learn to tell by hefting hive if you have stores or you have little or you have none at all.

 

[oliver90owner]

Perhaps the trouble with the new beeks is that they have not even checked out the weight of a super full of honey, let alone a deep box full of stores and bees, often doing it with a roof on top, too.

 

[Outlander]

May be two weeks ago you may have been right but not now, believe me I now know what a well stocked 14x12 bb feels like. I also know what a robbed out hive feels like to compare it to. I also realise the weight of a full 14x12 frame of stores and a frame of brood with little amount of stores. Actually Rab this new beek is quite confident he could tell a well stocked hive of stores.

And he's also watching you in the early light of day.

 

[village girl]

but unless new beeks practice hefting how will they ever learn oviosly hefting should be combined with visual checks wear apropriate (weather permiting) and weighing with scales, and as you go through a seson of hive inspections, you soon learn that a frame of brood weighs much less than a frame of stores. all new beeks have to learn and we do this by putting into practice what we read and what we are told

 

[oliver90owner]

May be two weeks ago you may have been right but not now

That's good. Doesn't take long when you (as in new beek) think about it?

 

[Finman]

OK Finny I think I understood where you’re coming from but also I still think you can learn to tell by hefting hive if you have stores or you have little or you have none at all.

You are right!

(I cannot beat stupids in debating. I pinch myself)

Yes, of course! Yes