How do I separate a double brood with chimneying brood comb?

[issy.harvey]

Hello,
Newbie error but howe do I correct it? I added a second standard brood box (national hive) as I thought it would be easier/lighter for me to handle than 12x14 and queen was laying well. This hive has 3 supers on it. I went on holiday. When I went to inspect again I found the two brood boxes have been joined together by continual comb. So I couldn't inspect any brood frames without disrupting the brood nest. Someone has suggested I get cheese wire to slice the comb so that the frames in each box are separate again. I'm paralysed by uncertainty - and meanwhile the prob Lem is no doubt getting worse! Any suggestions ? Is the cheese wire idea worth doing? Is it risky? Or do I leave them alone until the end of then season?

 

[Anduril]

I've used cheese wire in the past, another option would be to split the boxes with your hive tool and then twist the top box and then lift. Othwise you will lift the frames in the lower box. Another method would be to lever a hive tool in-between the top box and lower frames and lever the lower frames into the lower brood box.

 

[enrico]

If you put a j type hive tool under one frame right by the actual frame and use the notch to lever on the frame next to it the frames will come apart. The bottom frame can only lift so far before it hits the edge of the box above it. You may have to loosen both ends by levering but they will seperate especially if the weather is warm.

 

[Anduril]

As an addendum, scrape the wax off the top bars of the lower box and scrape the bottom bars of the top box after they have been separated.

 

[hemo]

If they have joined all combs with brace comb then bee spacing must be wrong, many of us use doube national brood without issues.

Use a wooden wedge to seperate boxes , insert the hive tool at a corner then insert wedge. Go around to the other side and do the opposing corner with your hive tool , if one is lucky one should be able to twist the boxes to break the brace comb ( depends if it is all frames or just here and there.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If they have joined all combs with brace comb then bee spacing must be wrong

, don't run many double brood, but never had an issue with the two levels of frames being braced firmly together

 

[blackcloud]

BBS box on top of TBS box?
End panel set up for metal runners that are missing (or not and theve been added)?
Definitely a beespace issue.
Dont worry about the separation -we will always do some destruction disturbing the hive.
But it really needs investigation before re use

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you put a j type hive tool under one frame right by the actual frame and use the notch to lever on the frame next to it the frames will come apart.

quite literally in many cases

 

[Antipodes]

Hello,
Newbie error but howe do I correct it? I added a second standard brood box (national hive) as I thought it would be easier/lighter for me to handle than 12x14 and queen was laying well. This hive has 3 supers on it. I went on holiday. When I went to inspect again I found the two brood boxes have been joined together by continual comb. So I couldn't inspect any brood frames without disrupting the brood nest. Someone has suggested I get cheese wire to slice the comb so that the frames in each box are separate again. I'm paralysed by uncertainty - and meanwhile the prob Lem is no doubt getting worse! Any suggestions ? Is the cheese wire idea worth doing? Is it risky? Or do I leave them alone until the end of then season?

What you did is not an error. I see it regularly.

Another method would be to lever a hive tool in-between the top box and lower frames and lever the lower frames into the lower brood box.

The best way. You'll probably need to do both ends (but not at the same time).

 

[enrico]

quite literally in many cases

I have seen it quoted but NEVER had a frame come apart on me. It will break at the weakest point and that is where there is no wood supporting it where the wax is between the two frames. If your frames break that easily then something is wrong. You are lucky they don't come apart when extracting

 

[Beth]

So glad to see this question!! I have this problem also and was thinking of using wire. But is there any chance the queen would be caught up in the path of it? I have drone on the bottom of the top frames so she's been in that area. Or is it true that once the crown board is off she'll dive down into the bottom box?

Also I use the bar style QE's, so not just a flat sheet of perforated metal. These have bee space on one side and no matter which way you turn it, it's going to create double bee space. What is the answer? Is there a right way up?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

is it true that once the crown board is off she'll dive down into the bottom box?

no, it's not true

Is there a right way up?

on bottom beespace the QX should be put on to give beespace between the wires and the top bars below thus also giving beespace between the wires and the bottom bars above
Top beespace, vice versa

 

[Beth]

Thanks, that is the very problem! It gives them bee space above the bottom, the top box has bee space below - so there's a bee space of bridging comb. I can understand though in a busy BB that they need plenty of space so it really just seems to be a hazard of using that type of excluder.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks, that is the very problem! It gives them bee space above the bottom, the top box has bee space below - so there's a bee space of bridging comb. I can understand though in a busy BB that they need plenty of space so it really just seems to be a hazard of using that type of excluder.

I've never found it a big issue at all, a quick twist releases the first super off the QX, takes a little more work to free the QX, but then you get exactly the same issue with the crown boards - and they only have single beespace

 

[WalnutTreeBees]

I would lever each frame up individually using a J tool, or even two J tools to do both sides together. Although it can be slightly alarming when you can't get the boxes apart, it's usually easier than you expect to sort out. Just take your time, do a bit on one side, bit on the other and ease them out. Probably be helpful to have a spare brood box to transfer the frames into once you have scraped them down. Then you can also check the bee space of the old brood box too.

 

[user 6228]

no, it's not true

on bottom beespace the QX should be put on to give beespace between the wires and the top bars below thus also giving beespace between the wires and the bottom bars above
Top beespace, vice versa

but its true enough times to be irritating ... uncertainty is certainly a factor in Beekeeping

 

[drex]

Nothing to fuss about. Bees will be bees. I am confident that bee space is correct in my boxes, ( certainly was when i made them up) but it still happens. I break the seal with hive tool on top most box, then try to lift. Can tell by any resistance if the frames are braced together. Puff of smoke between boxes, twist and lift, and scrape off brace comb.

 

[Swarm]

Nothing to fuss about. Bees will be bees. I am confident that bee space is correct in my boxes, ( certainly was when i made them up) but it still happens. I break the seal with hive tool on top most box, then try to lift. Can tell by any resistance if the frames are braced together. Puff of smoke between boxes, twist and lift, and scrape off brace comb.

Exactly and in this case it sounds like the OP hadn't lifted a frame for a while having been on holiday. I'd imagine quite a bit of drone brood in that area. As you said, it's not a big deal and easily scraped clean.

 

[Swarm]

Thanks, that is the very problem! It gives them bee space above the bottom, the top box has bee space below - so there's a bee space of bridging comb. I can understand though in a busy BB that they need plenty of space so it really just seems to be a hazard of using that type of excluder.

You are right, they add an extra bee space into the mix. Have a look at the frameless type, we have also found the bamboo excluders to be a nice alternative.

 

[enrico]

Finally if this is a problem that is really troubling you put the boxes at right angles to each other. They will not build brace comb and it has little effect on the bees. Some say it stops ventilation but never having been in a beehive as a bee I wouldn't know. It works for me and it will work for you.