honey at top ... academic reason why?

[user 6228]

Can some one point me to a journal or book that has a validated reason for honey being above the brood.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

ask the bees - that's how they do it.

 

[Finman]

Can some one point me to a journal or book that has a validated reason for honey being above the brood.

As well you could find a resesrch why many UK beekeepers put capped super under brood box for winter.

 

[Itchy]

Frequently find honey in the side corners of chimney cut outs. My theory on honey being at the top (usually) is that it provides a thermal store, and therefore some insulation. It won't get cold, and therefore is easily useable by the bees at all times.

Sorry, can't help with boffin stuff

 

[Tremyfro]

I would agree with the insulation theory. My bees store their honey/syrup above in an arc. Also they completely fill frames on the northern side of the hive and always some as a strip down the western edge of the frames. My entrances are mainly eastern or southern in orientation.

 

[BeeJayBee]

No, but it makes sense for European honey bees to put nectar/honey at the top where it's easier for them to remove excess moisture because they get help from the heat rising from the brood etc..

They may behave differently in warmer climates with a more stable year-round temperature.

 

[Finman]

Phenomenom is very clear, why the order is that. It does not scientic evidence.
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But then, beekeepers do not understand the anvantage of system.

In nature cluster rises up, and it starts brood rearing in marmest place of the hive. Then the colony enlarge down.

Beekeeper puts enlargening on the top, and the colony looses much its heat control.
Even about this there is no comparative researches, which way is better to enlarge.

 

[Finman]

.one thing too...

When a swarm settles down into the hive, the queen starts allways laying from another side wall. But the beekeepers wants that laying srarts from centre of the box. When the swarm goes in, you find the queen near the side wall.

Next one...

Bees have natural order, how bees store pollen in the hive. Even if university researchers explain, why bees do that, beekeepers do not much mind, how things should be. Beekeepers have their own instinct about order.

Summary: With these couple examples we can notice, that human instincts win bees' instincts of hive order in beekeeping. The power tool is an excluder and moving frames according human feelings.
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[jenkinsbrynmair]

They may behave differently in warmer climates with a more stable year-round temperature.

Southern African bees store honey above the brood when left to their own devices - looks like a worldwide thing

 

[thenovice]

I think the explanation is very simple. the brood has to stay together for the cluster to keep it warm. as bees hang comb from ceilings and not from the bottom up (why that is, physics will have an answer no doubt), if they would put the honey below the brood they would have to split up the brood nest to expand or move the honey all the time...

 

[Finman]

When bees have such system as they have, why we should to wonder, what if it is otherwise.

I think that university must have better to do than wonder this kind of things.
That is why this is far from academic issue.

You will not get Nobel Prize, if you reviele that secret.

 

[user 6228]

Frequently find honey in the side corners of chimney cut outs. My theory on honey being at the top (usually) is that it provides a thermal store, and therefore some insulation. It won't get cold, and therefore is easily useable by the bees at all times.

Sorry, can't help with boffin stuff

Interesting observation ... do you have photographs?
The explanation may be the opposite i.e. the bees put honey where they can raise the temperature easily. The photographs of honey distribution in unusual enclosures .e.g. chimnies, roof spaces might shed light on this. Please can you photograph these for me if it is at all possible.

 

[beeno]

Hi derekm,
I don't know if it helps, but in reading about moving from skeps to removable hives years ago now, the reason stated for putting supers on top was that bees did not like having empty space above them. Thus by putting supers above you supposedly forced the bees to store honey above.

 

[Finman]

Hi derekm,
I don't know if it helps, but in reading about moving from skeps to removable hives years ago now, the reason stated for putting supers on top was that bees did not like having empty space above them. Thus by putting supers above you supposedly forced the bees to store honey above.

I bought a skep 52 years ago. It has that straw cupole, piece of excluder and a 15 kg super. Nothing to learn from that.

Bees renewed the combs so, that they bite down black combs. There was brown sawdust under the hive when they did that work. Then I realized in frame hives, that I must renew comb renewing before they start their own process and waste energy in the work.

When I started, beehives were full of all kind of diseases. They stand diseases more and less. i remember how brood areas use to be spotty like shooted with shootgun. Much more later I learned that reason was diseases, when I got healthy hives and I saw even brood areas.

50 years ago beekeeping was in miserable state in my country.


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[GoEnviro]

Structurally it would be wise for the bees to keep the weight closets to the point of connection.
The wax cappings additionally adds strength to the structure
If there is any problem with the stores they will know quickly and where from as honey will roll down the comb to the bees

 

[meath]

my simple little mind would suggest, if a swarm moves into a new home, bate hive, tree, house wall, what ever,
first thing they need to do is build comb, for HM to lay in,
but nectar and pollen are needed before she can lay, so as the comb is been built, it is been filled with nectar and pollen. when there is enough stores she begins to lay up that comb. and they just continue to fill in around her, until she runs out of space and fecks off with her clan.



also the insulation factor, my hives tend to have heavier stores on the cold side.

 

[oliver90owner]

It only needs a little joined up thinking by the OP. Making scientific papers when common sense is the obvious requirement is a bit OTT, IMO. Think warmth, insulation, protection of possessions and several other factors. Try fitting more laying space I. At the top of a cone....

 

[user 6228]

It only needs a little joined up thinking by the OP. Making scientific papers when common sense is the obvious requirement is a bit OTT, IMO. Think warmth, insulation, protection of possessions and several other factors. Try fitting more laying space I. At the top of a cone....

Alas informed speculation doesnt constitute proof, further it isnt proof worthy of a reference. The forum as a group has read far more bee books and papers than it is possible for me to read in a life time. And some of the speculation is incorrect.(yes so are some academic papers and books)

e.g. empty comb is a better insulator than honey filled comb by about an order of magnitude.(Lambda ~0.03 compared to ~ 0.3)

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Alas informed speculation doesnt constitute proof, further it isnt proof worthy of a reference. The forum as a group has read far more bee books and papers than it is possible for me to read in a life time. And some of the speculation is incorrect.(yes so are some academic papers and books)

e.g. empty comb is a better insulator than honey filled comb by about an order of magnitude.(Lambda ~0.03 compared to ~ 0.3)

You remind me of my old, now deceased, physics teacher who used to recite "air is the best insulator". Usually related to wiring up simple electrical experiments

 

[Finman]

You remind me of my old, now deceased, physics teacher who used to recite "air is the best insulator". Usually related to wiring up simple electrical experiments

Our teacher teached that vacuum is best insulator.
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