Help: WASPS in the Bee Shed!

[TBRNoTB]

Tidy perhaps but never clean.

Wasps are just as dirty as filth flies. They route through fecal matter and rotting flesh/carrion - pick up lots of nasty bacteria and then land on our food . To cap it all, wasps are 'wet' insects and are almost constantly peeing on everything.

Isn't honey, bee vomit?

 

[Karol]

Isn't honey, bee vomit?

It may well be but the high sugar content is bacteristatic and as far as I'm aware, honey bees don't specifically route through faecal matter and carrion picking up nasty bugs.

It really is surprising how much wasps pee. Again, as part of our research we've handled quite a few wasps in sterilin containers. Within a couple of minutes dry clean containers become quite wet. Wasps are very adept at spreading food poisoning, especially E.coli, on uncooked foods.

It's also interesting to hear advice on putting wasp nests in the freezer. We successfully froze (-20°C) and thawed queen wasps repeatedly at least a dozen times without any ill effect. We haven't tried to do so with worker wasps but if queens survive then it may be feasible for workers to survive as well. Grubs we would expect to die because of their high relative water content compared to adults.

Poor old dustmen!

 

[Hivemaker.]

honey bees don't specifically route through faecal matter and carrion picking up nasty bugs.

They love getting there water supply from dung heaps,dirty ditches,cess pits,leaking sewage pipes and many other dirty places,they seem to like pee.

 

[itma]

...
It's also interesting to hear advice on putting wasp nests in the freezer. We successfully froze (-20°C) and thawed queen wasps repeatedly at least a dozen times without any ill effect. ...

Amazing!
But how long did you leave them frozen for?

 

[Karol]

They love getting there water supply from dung heaps,dirty ditches,cess pits,leaking sewage pipes and many other dirty places,they seem to like pee.

As far as I'm aware, they don't actually 'drink' this water in the classic sense. They tank up on it and then 'posit' it on the outside of their nests as a means of climate control which is aided by fanning from sentries.

The pee that they excrete comes from the 'nectar' that they drink either from flowers or from their grubs. It's just that when they pee they wash off all the bacteria that they pick up from all these horrible places that they visit. What's worse is they drag their stingers through this horrible stuff so as to contaminate their sting sacs with bacteria giving them a microbiological component to their 'weapon'. That's why every year there are cases of people having amputations etc for serious and life threatening infections from wasps. The season before last a chap had his leg amputated right up to and including the buttock to save his life from necrotising fasciitis (MRSA) and similarly a little boy had to have his genitalia amputated when a wasp landed in his lap and stung him in his penis through his clothes.

Our experience is that wasp stings appear to be more hazardous than bee stings so care should be taken when handling nests and do make sure to be suited and booted properly.

 

[Karol]

Amazing!
But how long did you leave them frozen for?

Overnight on each occassion. We thawed the queens and fed them nectar and then allowed them to pee before re-freezing them so that they were not ruptured by ice forming in their abdomens. This was repeated a dozen times. I suspect that the interval between taking down a nest and freezing it and what time of day in relation to when the wasps last fed may make a difference to the kill rate. If the wasps are tanked up then freezing will probably kill them if they don't have time to pee first before they become immobilized with the cold. As I said this was done with queens and it was done February time. It may be that the time of year has some role in this. It may well be that workers don't survive (accelerated/forced) freezing either. We didn't take the research that far.

 

[Bungalow]

burn sulphur in a tin bucket in the shed... hopefully will get rid of any moths as well

Elf'n'safety !! I think that's a bit dangerous. Might get rid of you, too.

 

[alanf]

As I said this was done with queens and it was done February time. It may be that the time of year has some role in this.

A queen in February would expect to freeze overnight in a bark crevice, shed corner etc. Seems probable that the metabolism is more vulnerable in the summer nest. I don't recall wasps or other insects caught accidentally in fruit put in a freezer recovering.

 

[Hivemaker.]

As far as I'm aware, they don't actually 'drink' this water in the classic sense. They tank up on it and then 'posit' it on the outside of their nests as a means of climate control which is aided by fanning from sentries.
.

They also collect it to consume,to re liquify their stores,especially in winter and early spring.

 

[madasafish]

Elf'n'safety !! I think that's a bit dangerous. Might get rid of you, too.

Used to be a standard way of fumigating greenhouses.

I never read of gardeners dying for it.. and most live to old age: probably because the fumes killed any germs.

 

[oliver90owner]

Used to be a standard way of fumigating greenhouses.

Reference sulphur dioxide fumigation. Very acidic and not good for anything metal (avoid aluminium glass houses). Nail heads will likely rust and start shed degradation, unless things are decidedly dry (the sulphurous gases dissolve in water and form sulphurous and sulphuric acids).

That's why it used to be the standard way and is not used so much these days.

 

[thedeaddiplomat]

I am remiss in not recording sooner my gratitude for the professional and helpful responses to my original enquiry.

For a novice beekeeper like me, it is the thought that I can always rely on thoughtful, non-condescending and constructive replies to apparently naive questions that makes it worth being a member of, and supporting, this forum.

 

[Skyhook]

Typical answer If they can`t show how clever they think there are all they can do is mock

Talk about a sense of humour failure!

 

[Karol]

They also collect it to consume,to re liquify their stores,especially in winter and early spring.

? This might be true of bees but not wasps. Wasp colonies die out. It's only the mated queens that hibernate and they don't keep stores.

 

[Karol]

A queen in February would expect to freeze overnight in a bark crevice, shed corner etc. Seems probable that the metabolism is more vulnerable in the summer nest. I don't recall wasps or other insects caught accidentally in fruit put in a freezer recovering.

I think you're right. I also think it's the speed of freezing. In nature the temperatures drop gradually giving the insect time to adjust (and basically pee). Forced freezing sees a drop in temperature that is so rapid that the wasp isn't afforded that luxury. Placing a nest in a bag however will provide a a degree of insulation and potentially a slower rate of freezing so there may be survivors. As I said our research didn't go that far so it's all hypothesis as regards summer nests. We do however see wasp nests survive right through to January if they have a food source and these nests do get below freezing from what we've seen.

 

[Chris Luck]

A light frost of minus a couple of degrees won't penetrate very far and no more than a centimetre in the ground...however I think three days in the deep freeze would finish them of.

...and I'm sure Hivemaker was talking about bees that do indeed "consume" some fairly vile liquids, they are particularly fond of where I urinate on the ground outside, (not that that's vile), and I think I may try some urine in some syrup this autumn on a couple or three hives.

Chris

 

[Nose Ma]

Karol

I assume you are aware of the weta that can repeatedly be frozen? According to Wikipedia (may or may not be correct) it has particular proteins in its haemolymph to prevent it freezing. It may be a reasonable assumption to make that a queen wasp is similar. As another points out it’s necessary for a queen to survive the winter (as is also true of a weta) so it’s worth her while making the proteins, indeed there is an evolutionary pressure making such a necessity. There is no such evolutionary advantage to a worker as it would be dead before season’s end in any event. The extra effort in making the “antifreeze” would be a selection pressure not to bother, in other words worker wasps not making the proteins have more resources for other wasp activities and would do better. As wasps have castes the biochemistry could well be different. My hypothesis based on little more than supposition would therefore be that worker wasps can be easily killed by freezing, queens cannot.
It would be interesting to see how low a temperature a queen bumble could cope with too.

 

[Chris Luck]

Most species that overwinter in what could be loosely called a hibernative state don't have this possibility. That includes insects and their larvae, reptiles and amphibians. What they can do is find places that protect them from extremely low temperatures, underground, deep in forest debris, inside hollow trees, walls and buildings etc. There are loads of photos and other evidence showing Queen Bumble bees frozen to death on flowers having been caught by a frost but I guess that may not be the whole story.

Chris

 

[alanf]

There's a moth larva in one of the David Attenborough "Frozen Plant" series, the Arctic Woolly Bear Moth, that lives on the Arctic tundra. Every spring it wakes up and eats, every autumn it stops and gets frozen solid for several months. It could be 14 or more years before it's big enough to pupate and fly.

I also think it's the speed of freezing. In nature the temperatures drop gradually giving the insect time to adjust (and basically pee). Forced freezing sees a drop in temperature that is so rapid that the wasp isn't afforded that luxury.

There's an immediate reaction effect, and the 'pee' will be getting rid of any dilute fluids. There's also likely to be a seasonal change in metabolism. Building internal food stores for the transitions and often chemical protection against forming large ice crystals that destroy cells. You couldn't just drop one in the freezer one summer day and expect it to thaw it out as usual next spring.

 

[Hivemaker.]

honey bees don't specifically route through faecal matter and carrion picking up nasty bugs.

? This might be true of bees but not wasps. Wasp colonies die out. It's only the mated queens that hibernate and they don't keep stores.

Karol, I was talking about bees, not wasps, in reply to what you wrote in your post and quoted at the top here,which i also quoted in my first reply.