help!! High varroa still......

[nuporter]

Hi- Im a beekeeper in southampton with two hives. After treating with Apiguard in August, and then Oxalic Acid at the end of December (during a slightly warmer spell tho it then went cold again)- Ive just done my monthly varroa check and its still high. One hive has a mite drop of over 6 a day and the other has a mite drop of over 4 a day. (Last year when I treated with Oxalic acid in Jan- the mite drop went down to one in 5 days).
What do I do now? Can I do another Oxalic acid treatment?
Thanks
Nuala

 

[Mike a]

One option is doing a complete shook swarm early spring (April) when the weather is milder and feed them lots of syrup over several weeks to help them build back up. This may seem a little brutal to sacrifice all the eggs, larvae and brood but it will remove a very high percentage of varroa and the colony will be highly motivated to draw out new frames quickly.

 

[oliver90owner]

And cull the first couple of patches of capped brood. Finish the job!

Regards, RAB

 

[Haughton Honey]

One option is doing a complete shook swarm early spring (April) when the weather is milder and feed them lots of syrup over several weeks to help them build back up. This may seem a little brutal to sacrifice all the eggs, larvae and brood but it will remove a very high percentage of varroa and the colony will be highly motivated to draw out new frames quickly.

Remember when doing a shook swarm that you can transfer any undrawn frames and frames with purely stores in to the new box, so using less in the way of new frames and foundation......unless you're looking to do a complete comb change for hygiene purposes.

 

[For want of a better word]

Interesting.................
I note you have two hives, and presume you would need to "shake out" both hives to prevent cross infection if that is the correct term?

Any thoughts on bringing an infected colony near to varroa free hives would be interesting, is varroa transmitted from bee to bee when meeting "on the bush" collecting nectar/ pollen? or does a varroa carrying bee need to go into the hive?

 

[johna]

Shook swarm in spring on to new clean frames and wax and O.A treat immediately. This will clean up the Varroa on the bees.No need to destroy the subsequent brood as you have removed most of the Varroa off the bees. Destroy the brood and frames from the old brood nest.Blowlamp the old hive to completely sterilize - job done.

 

[oliver90owner]

and then Oxalic Acid at the end of December

No need to destroy the subsequent brood

Alright for those 'gung-ho' with oxalic acid treatments umpteen times a year. Me? I prefer not to treat with oxalic unless I really need to and also would follow the 'once a year recommendation, if I were to treat.

That is why I would cull the first couple of patches of capped brood. One, or perhaps two, days extra brood lost and virtually no varroa is the far less 'chemically harsh' option than further treatment with chemicals, I would say (although I suppose there would be some who would argue against that!).

OP choice I suppose but at least (s)he can now make a better informed choice.

 

[johna]

and then Oxalic Acid at the end of December

No need to destroy the subsequent brood

Alright for those 'gung-ho' with oxalic acid treatments umpteen times a year. Me? I prefer not to treat with oxalic unless I really need to and also would follow the 'once a year recommendation, if I were to treat.

That is why I would cull the first couple of patches of capped brood. One, or perhaps two, days extra brood lost and virtually no varroa is the far less 'chemically harsh' option than further treatment with chemicals, I would say (although I suppose there would be some who would argue against that!).

OP choice I suppose but at least (s)he can now make a better informed choice.

I'm not O.A ing any other time during the season Rab,other than once in the winter when the Queen is not laying.Using O.A. is not a "gung ho" approach but rather a sensible precaution. Why don't you test out the opinion of your local ministry inspector and ask what he thinks.As I've said before to you,you are entitled to your own opinion but PLEASE don't confuse beginner beekeepers who are asking for sensible advice for what to them is a scary problem.

 

[mbc]

(although I suppose there would be some who would argue against that!).

Too right, api infanticide versus a splash of mild organic acid ! Its a no brainer for me.

Also o90o your maths is out with the " one or two days extra brood ",
surely if you wait for the first batch to be capped your talking at least 9 days after the queen first started laying eggs , so you'd destroy the capped brood plus 5 days worth of developing larvae plus 3 or 4 days of eggs, all to avoid putting something into the hive which is there naturally( in small quantities ) anyway.

As with most things, its horses for courses, but I'd rather go with being "gung-ho" myself especially when there's some doubt as to wether all the varroa jump into the first available brood anyway.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Can I do another Oxalic acid treatment?

Yes you can,up to four treatments,but sixteen days apart.

 

[Arfermo]

Hi- Im a beekeeper in southampton with two hives. After treating with Apiguard in August, and then Oxalic Acid at the end of December (during a slightly warmer spell tho it then went cold again)- Ive just done my monthly varroa check and its still high. One hive has a mite drop of over 6 a day and the other has a mite drop of over 4 a day. (Last year when I treated with Oxalic acid in Jan- the mite drop went down to one in 5 days).
What do I do now? Can I do another Oxalic acid treatment?
Thanks
Nuala

I have never found that a single oxalic treatment does enough of a job - even with Apiguard in late August/early Sept. I have treated twice again this year - after the first the drop was in the hundreds in most cases but after the second it was down to two or none after a month. I am now happy that I have done my best for the season until next August. By the way I evaporate from under the hive through the mesh floor. Nobody please tell me my method is worse than trickling 'cos it ain't - it's merely different and tried and tested. As for using oxalic in other circumstances - AS, Shook Swarm and swarm collection it virtually mandatory in my book.

 

[oliver90owner]

Using O.A. is not a "gung ho" approach but rather a sensible precaution.

Oh dear. Not reading the post - again! Trying to misquote me again.

I said very specifically quote: 'Alright for those 'gung-ho' with oxalic acid treatments umpteen times a year.' unquote.

I gave a perfectly adequate, and likely as efficient, non chemical alternative AND gave my reasons for it - yes I justified my alternative.

Sorree, but offering a sound alternative is confusing a beginner? I think not, if they have at least a modicum of beekeeping understanding. Please don't judge all by your level of understanding.

Perhaps, if you actually read p27 of the DEFRA 'managing Varroa booklet you might just come cross the second bulleted point regarding using methods which 'can replace the need for varroacides', or even p28 where there is a superb table on IPM methods where specifically comb trapping is clearly advised for the months of April to July.

The OP already monitors for varroa so they are at least half way to being able to control varroa without resorting to chemical means, at the drop of a hat. I might suggest that you are trying to exaggerate the problem from a simple 'on-going control' into an 'instant potential death of the colony' threat, which it is most certainly not. Varroa is not 'scary'; it has been researched over many years and infestation is easily kept under control. Regular routine practise is what is needed, nothing scary at all.

Your last para: even 'most of not a lot' will leave very few varroa for the period until the next assessmen, I am sure. Even oxalic acid is not 100% effective either, do you know?

 

[Poly Hive]

Possibly some of us who have been around a wee while, under estimate just how "scary" swarming and varroa, not to mention finding the queen are to some.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

Also o90o your maths is out with the " one or two days extra brood ",
surely if you wait for the first batch to be capped your talking at least 9 days after the queen first started laying eggs , so you'd destroy the capped brood plus 5 days worth of developing larvae plus 3 or 4 days of eggs, all to avoid putting something into the hive which is there naturally( in small quantities ) anyway.


Mbc,

Did I really say that. I think not. You don't need a maths degree to remove that first capped brood without taking with it another week's worth of uncapped brood and eggs brood!

Your imagination runs wild if you think I would remove complete frames for a little patch of capped brood in the centre of maybe only one or two frames!

You say 'surely', I say 'surely not'!

 

[Skyhook]

PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A QUESTION, NOT A STATEMENT PHRASED AS A QUESTION- would this be a suitable opportunity to use hiveclean, in a swarm or AS situation? As I understand it, it's icing sugar with attitude, ie likely to reduce the population of phoretic mites. Or is it a bit of a gimmick?

 

[oliver90owner]

Of course the claims are true. If the phoretic varroa are reduced by one single mite, the claim must be upheld! However, there are other opportunities (apart from culling the first brood), to reduce the varroa loading.

I would advocate a good rolling in icing sugar for the whole colony (apart from HRH) while the colony has only open brood. That should be effective, far above dusting the frames with 'something'.

At the moment, I think most, or perhaps, all of these 'hive sanitisers' are a means of separating beekeeper from his/her cash without any proven efficacy. We know they are only marketed by circumventing the VMD - by calling them a hive cleaner.

Any treatment while relatively broodless (certainly 'capped brood-free') will reduce the mites very quickly because there are only phoretic ones there and they are easy to target.

Regards, RAB

 

[mbc]

Mbc,

Did I really say that. I think not. You don't need a maths degree to remove that first capped brood without taking with it another week's worth of uncapped brood and eggs brood!

Your imagination runs wild if you think I would remove complete frames for a little patch of capped brood in the centre of maybe only one or two frames!

You say 'surely', I say 'surely not'![/QUOTE]

o90o, your queens must be better trained than mine if they neatly keep different days of laying to separate frames so that you can conveniently discard brood all of the same age on one or two frames.
I happen to think its despite the point anyway, considering its been shown that many of the varroa stagger their dive into imminently capped brood even if theyve been hanging on waiting for the chance to breed.

 

[Storm™]

Wow is this argument still ongoing lol

With sugar rolling - having seen this a few times on U tube - they just sprinkled/fadoomfed it on the frame tops depending on who you watch. How do you avoid HRH.

 

[nuporter]

many thanks

Wow- so many replies already (and I only posted last night!!). This forum is ace- its the first time Ive used it..... plus I read the post for new people about getting conflicting advice!!
Can I just say a huge thank you to everyone who posted- I feel a lot more happy about my bees - and was planning a shook swarm anyway in spring (especially as one of my hives was a small swarm in 2009, split in 2010 and is due a good clean out with new foundation and frames this year).
I must admit- Id envisaged the huge (ant size and growing!!), 'oxalic resistant' (after the oxalic treatment hadnt worked as well as hoped) varroa taking over my two hives and destroying both my colonies......unless I did something immediately. Really pleased to find out that this isnt the case and I can just wait until April to do a shook swarm. Will decide upon the retreatment of oxalic acid vs brood culling debate nearer the time (its great to be given alternatives).
I do agree with the post about some of the aspects of bee keeping being scary for new people- but it is enjoyable learning and Im looking forward to doing my first shook swarms (although need to build the brood boxes I bought flat packed in the Thornes winter sale first- took me a whole day to build a super last year with my 3 yr old helping me!!).
Thanks again for all the posts
Nuala x

 

[psafloyd]

I haven't any idea how the varroa is going, as I couldn't be there for a few weeks for the count and didn't want to leave the tray in when there was so much moisture about.

As I couldn't do much in any case, I thought I would leave well enough alone and stop myself from worrying. This may prove to be reckless, but I didn't want to do another OA and thought I would start a count soon and consider Apigard in the near future if things are bad. And really, they should be, as they were crawling when i got them last year.