Hello and advice please!

[Antipodes]

1 peek is worth a thousand guesses.
Have bee suit, crowbar, smoker.
will make wedges and see.
Any advice on time of day weather conditions that would be most conducive.
Am not in a rush.

This Friday looks nice and fine there in the middle of the day to lift it up and see what's going on. All going well with that, it may be best then to wait to the depths of winter to move them, but probably good at this stage to explore further options once you know where they are etc.

 

[pargyle]

The tilting is to determine how far down the extended comb goes, if there is any, whether the comb has brood and where the cluster is. Then as Antipodes suggested, a floor could be added and the hive left in situ. Or it could be placed alongside the pillar and then moved 3 feet at a time to get to its final destination. Not knowing what the spring weather is going to be like and the very small window that is left to complete the operation before Easter. Tilting can also determine the weight of the hive now and whether it would need fondant. So with a floor underneath hefting can be carried out over the winter.

Modifying your words a cut out is possible for a beekeeper with a bit of knowledge ... not sure it's a job for someone not really anything more than a beginner at best.

Sorry ... I don't agree ... if they are destined to survive the winter they will ..anything that disturbs the preps they have made is going to be detrimental to their survival. If there is comb in the pillar it will be attached to the bottom of the frames and tilting the hive, even a small amount will disturb it or worse still break it off. Who knows what damage even a small amount of movement could do.

I would wrap the brood box in PIR insulation to give them some additional warmth and prepare over winter for pulling it apart in Spring when there is some hope of warmer weather, forage and colony build up. Like I said, no benefits whatsoever to fiddling with them now.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Many thanks for your thoughts... To answer:-
I'm in north Nottinghamshire.
Yes there are frames in the hive.
There is no floor on the hive.... The original swarm used the hole in the brickwork - as surmised - however the current swarm use a gap in the bubble wrap between the hive and the pillar and I assume they have blocked off the gap in the brickwork.
Although the hive has been active since I spotted it in June it has never seemed overwhelmingly big.

There must (should?) be a competent beekeeper somewhere near you, hopefully one willing to provide boots on the ground help when spring comes around. In the meantime make sure wind and weather don't dislodge the hive.
Have you reached out to Nottinghamshire Beekeepers Association?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sorry ... I don't agree ... if they are destined to survive the winter they will ..anything that disturbs the preps they have made is going to be detrimental to their survival. If there is comb in the pillar it will be attached to the bottom of the frames and tilting the hive, even a small amount will disturb it or worse still break it off. Who knows what damage even a small amount of movement could do.

I would wrap the brood box in PIR insulation to give them some additional warmth and prepare over winter for pulling it apart in Spring when there is some hope of warmer weather, forage and colony build up. Like I said, no benefits whatsoever to fiddling with them now.

@AndyjHawk
I'll second what Phillip has said. Leave them till Spring

 

[Jb.robert]

I would fabricate a box the same size than the pillar (42x42x H) with ply or anything structurally sound. Make a small entrance slot in it similar to the one on the pillar.
Stand the box next to the pillar, Orientate the slot either as close as possible to the pillar slot, or just next to it facing the same direction and lift the hive box high enough to not damage any extending combs.
Ease down the combs and box in the pre-made box without to make any sudden movement or any bumps until the brood box rests on the pre-made box.
Leave it there for a while if any bees are flying around. Couple of days later, move the new hive to the desired location.
End of winter (before good days are back) cut off the extension combs to keep only the brood box, add a floor with entrance.
I would plan to be at least 2 persons with suits. No sure I would use smoke but it couldn’t hurt to have some ready.

 

[North End Bees]

1 peek is worth a thousand guesses.
Have bee suit, crowbar, smoker.
will make wedges and see.
Any advice on time of day weather conditions that would be most conducive.
Am not in a rush.

I would not be opening them before spring.

The combs in the pillar are not simply extensions of the brood box combs so there'll likely be some crushing when taking a peek.

If the Queen is accidently crushed that's the end of the colony full stop at this time of year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry ... I don't agree ... if they are destined to survive the winter they will ..anything that disturbs the preps they have made is going to be detrimental to their survival. If there is comb in the pillar it will be attached to the bottom of the frames and tilting the hive, even a small amount will disturb it or worse still break it off. Who knows what damage even a small amount of movement could do.

I would wrap the brood box in PIR insulation to give them some additional warmth and prepare over winter for pulling it apart in Spring when there is some hope of warmer weather, forage and colony build up. Like I said, no benefits whatsoever to fiddling with them now.

@AndyjHawk
I'll second what Phillip has said. Leave them till Spring

if you are not going to do anything until spring, what on earth is the point of fiddling with them now?
If part of the colony/cluster is down in the main body of the pillar, all you would be doing is breaking the cluster apart at a time when making good afterwards is a challenge for them.
At the moment there should be loads of stores above them (in the brood box) making it more probable that they are down in the pillar.
By February, they will have consumed most of the stores and the cluster will be tight up under the crownboard, so then, only a matter of lifting the box, slipping in a floor and leaving them to settle before moving them. I would suggest having anonther empty box (National hive footprint) handy when you lift them, then if part of the cluster is still hanging down in the pillar it's only a matter of putting your current brood box on top of the empty box, floor underneath and waiting for them to take the hint and move up.

 

[Anduril]

Sorry ... I don't agree ... if they are destined to survive the winter they will ..anything that disturbs the preps they have made is going to be detrimental to their survival. If there is comb in the pillar it will be attached to the bottom of the frames and tilting the hive, even a small amount will disturb it or worse still break it off. Who knows what damage even a small amount of movement could do.

I would wrap the brood box in PIR insulation to give them some additional warmth and prepare over winter for pulling it apart in Spring when there is some hope of warmer weather, forage and colony build up. Like I said, no benefits whatsoever to fiddling with them now.

The time constraints for spring are at best 18 days, weather dependent even less to move them to a new site in the same garden. This could cause a nuisance with bees returning to the original site.

 

[North End Bees]

The time constraints for spring are at best 18 days, weather dependent even less to move them to a new site in the same garden. This could cause a nuisance with bees returning to the original site.

OP has already said no problems in moving temporarily to another site. So just need one good day in spring with everything set up ready to go.

 

[AndyjHawk]

So will insulate and wait until spring.
Many thanks and will post when there is news.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The time constraints for spring are at best 18 days

depend on whether you consider spring to start at a specific time and date

 

[Anduril]

depend on whether you consider spring to start at a specific time and date

No, because we could still have a cold spell into April.
The advice thus far is speculation and assumption, there is no physical evidence through exploration as to whether the hive will survive the winter, even with insulation. The entrance is through a gap in the bubble wrap, any comb below that may or may not be attached to the pillar, the swarm arrived in early summer and has not been fed. The swarm could have been a primary or cast, we don't know.
We know that the stores in the hive is a known unknown, therefore it might not survive without intervention.

 

[North End Bees]

the swarm arrived in early summer and has not been fed. The swarm could have been a primary or cast, we don't know.
We know that the stores in the hive is a known unknown, therefore it might not survive without intervention.

This summer has been fantastic for nectar in most areas so likely to have built up well since June. But if the OP is unsure he can always give a block of fondant on top later without disturbing the bees.

 

[Swarm]

Colony size and stores can easily be assessed by a quick look under the crown board. If they've used the combs properly, it might even be possible to see the extent of any free comb by using a torch and looking down the seams.
Even a cast arriving early summer should have built up well this year, which is why I mentioned finding an experienced beekeeper to lend a hand next spring when you are more likely to find them up in that box.

 

[Anduril]

This summer has been fantastic for nectar in most areas so likely to have built up well since June. But if the OP is unsure he can always give a block of fondant on top later without disturbing the bees.

I agree but it depends on the fecundity of the queen, I've had hives that have built up very slowly and need feeding in the autumn and the extra insurance of fondant in winter, even then not all survive through to the next season. This season I had one hive build no further than 4 frames into July, from my records 4 frames of brood from April to July, it ended up being requeened and autumn fed.

 

[Anduril]

Colony size and stores can easily be assessed by a quick look under the crown board. If they've used the combs properly, it might even be possible to see the extent of any free comb by using a torch and looking down the seams.
Even a cast arriving early summer should have built up well this year, which is why I mentioned finding an experienced beekeeper to lend a hand next spring when you are more likely to find them up in that box.

March/April 2021 I was babysitting a neighbours hives while he was in Dubai, he thought one of his hives was dead before he left. When I looked through the clear crownboard it certainly looked that way, during the cold weather I tilted the hive and found they covered 4 frames, one reason why I always look from the bottom of the frames.

 

[Swarm]

I agree, tipping the box gives you an even better idea but there is not usually the risk of breaking it away from a possible pillar full of comb.

 

[Anduril]

but there is not usually the risk of breaking it away from a possible pillar full of comb.

Which may or may not be the case, but then I'm not risk averse.

 

[Antipodes]

No, because we could still have a cold spell into April.
The advice thus far is speculation and assumption, there is no physical evidence through exploration as to whether the hive will survive the winter, even with insulation. The entrance is through a gap in the bubble wrap, any comb below that may or may not be attached to the pillar, the swarm arrived in early summer and has not been fed. The swarm could have been a primary or cast, we don't know.
We know that the stores in the hive is a known unknown, therefore it might not survive without intervention.

All excellent points, particularly as the OP says the colony has never seemed overwhelmingly big. Let's not forget too that the OP says that "the first swarm died", so there is a history there. It's almost like the advice others are giving is to do what the OP did with the first swarm.

 

[pargyle]

I would fabricate a box the same size than the pillar (42x42x H) but it’s ply or anything structurally sound. Make a small entrance slot in it similar to the one on the pillar.
Stand the box next to the pillar, Orientate the slot either as close as possible to the pillar slot, or just next to it facing the same direction and lift the hive box high enough to not damage any extending combs.
Ease down the combs in the pre-made box without to make any sudden movement or any bumps.
Leave your it there for a while is any bees are flying around. Couple of days later, move the new hive to the desired location.
I would plan to be at least 2 persons with suits. No sure I would use smoke but it couldn’t hurt to have some ready.

Yes, that's one way of doing it ... my experience of cut outs is that it rarely goes exactly to plan . The comb in the pillar is likely to be attached to the interior walls of the pillar cavity and it will need a bread knife and some creativity with rubber bands and frames to get them into some empty frames. I'd agree with JBM - another brood box is a good idea - great if the free comb comes straight out but if it need cutting out ... a set of empty frames would be useful.

Cut outs can be messy, honey gets everywhere - be ready for the potential mess. Have a bucket with a lid to hand so you have somewhere to put any comb you are going to discard that is safe from the bees. A bucket of water for hand washing is a good idea, a bread knife and a box full of luck !

Plenty of time to prepare and there will be a period of reasonably warm weather in early spring .. be prepared in advance with all the necessary kit and when the forecast is fair ... you are ready to go.